Today’s guest, Nora Bateson, is a unique thinker that as a company we’ve been following for a while now. From invisible assumptions, to entanglement and trans-contextual organising, this conversation explores what organizing in complexity truly means for organisations and the relationships taking place within and between them. 

Nora Bateson is an award-winning filmmaker, writer, facilitator and educator, as well as President of the International Bateson Institute based in Sweden. Her work asks the question “how can we improve our perception of the complexity we live within, so we may improve our interaction with the world?”. Nora wrote, directed and produced the award-winning documentary, ‘An Ecology of Mind’, a portrait of her father, Gregory Bateson. Her work brings the fields of biology, cognition, art, anthropology, psychology, and information technology together into a study of the patterns in ecology of living systems. Her book, ‘Small Arcs of Larger Circles’ is a revolutionary personal approach to the study of systems and complexity, and the core text of the Harvard University LILA program 2017-18. Her new book, ‘Warm Data’, will be released in 2020 by Triarchy Press.

Tune in to your conversation with Nora as we dive deeper into systemic accountability, “Warm Data” practices, and the power of context.

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our Medium publication: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/Podcast-S2E13-Nora-Bateson 

To find out more about Nora’s work:

> Website: https://norabateson.wordpress.com/
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/NoraBateson 
> Medium: https://norabateson.medium.com/ 
> Wordpress: https://norabateson.wordpress.com/ 
> The International Bateson Institute: https://batesoninstitute.org/
 
Other references and mentions:

> Nora Bateson, Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing Through Other Patterns, 2016: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Small-Arcs-Larger-Circles-Patterns/dp/1909470961

> Organizations as Architectures for Complexity — with Joe Norman: https://stories.platformdesigntoolkit.com/organizations-as-architectures-for-complexity-with-joe-norman-5eebf5d1362e

> Joe Norman, “Generating wholes”: http://jwnorman.com/?p=4948  

> Boundaryless Whitepaper, New Foundations of Platform-Ecosystem Thinking — Designing Products and Organizations for a changing world, 2020: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/DOWNLOAD-NF

> Transition Network: https://transitionnetwork.org/ 



> Warm Data Lab: https://warmdatalab.net/

> Warm Data Podcast: https://www.warmdatapodcast.com/

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music

Recorded on 12 March 2021.

S2 Ep. 13 Nora Bateson – Trans-contextual Organizing: Shifting Perceptions

Today’s guest is Jabe Bloom, in conversation with Simone and Emanuele Quintarelli, Boundaryless’ EEEO Micro Enterprise Lead. 
 
With Jabe, we look into how, increasingly in an age of technologically powered organizations, thriving means the ability to enable “the three economies” of differentiation, scale and scope at the same time. The key question is: what’s the role of platforms and ecosystems in this shift? 
 
During the chat we explore topics such as managing organizational commons, ensuring continuity between the organization and its ecosystem, decentralizing information, sympoietic versus autopoietic systems, maneuver warfare theory, cosmopolitan localism, the role of social practice and methodologies in institutional innovation and so much more. We focus on the interplay between these trends and organizational development.
 
Jabe Bloom is part of Red Hat’s Global Transformation Office, where he services as a senior director. He has been working to explore the complex interactions between design, innovation, development, and operational excellence in organizations for more than 20 years. Jabe is currently writing his dissertation in pursuit of a Ph.D. in Design Studies at Carnegie Mellon University (PA) – his research focuses on the field of Transition Design and informs an ongoing exploration of the practice of design and strategy with a select group of international clients. 
 
Tune in to this informative conversation as we learn more about Jabe’s research, and his theories on organisational design and platform thinking. 
 
Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our Medium publication: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/Podcast-S2E16-Jabe-Bloom 
 
 
To find out more about Jabe’s work:
 
> Website: http://blog.jabebloom.com/ 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/cyetain  
> Red Hat: https://www.redhat.com/en 

Other references and mentions:

> Herbert Simon:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_A._Simon 
> Paul Lawrence and Jay Lorsch, Organization and Environment: Managing Differentiation and Integration, 1968: https://www.amazon.com/Organization-Environment-Managing-Differentiation-Integration/dp/0875841295  
> Bruno Latour: http://www.bruno-latour.fr/index-2.html
> Elinor Ostrom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom 
Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music

Recorded on 9 April 2021.

S2 Ep.16 Jabe Bloom – Platforming inside & between organizations: differentiation, scale, and scope

It’s undeniable that the role of software in any modern organisation is essential – untangling software from the organization is almost impossible today. With new solutions emerging as part of the low-code or no-code movement, what’s the best way to organise around software effectively? Why is it so important to remove hand-offs between teams and to ensure that self-directed teams can be enabled by platforms? What are the overlaps between the world of DevOps and the work we’re doing at Boundaryless around ecosystemic, and entrepreneurial organizations?
 
To better understand these questions, we bring on Matthew Skelton, co-author with Manuel Pais of ‘Team Topologies: organizing business and technology teams for fast flow’. It’s a seminal text that speaks about how to build the best team structure around the role that software has for your specific organisation.
 
Matthew is recognised by TechBeacon in 2018, 2019, and 2020 as one of the top 100 people to follow in DevOps. He curates the well-known DevOps team topologies patterns at devopstopologies.com. He is also Head of Consulting at Conflux and specialises in continuous delivery, operability, and organisation dynamics for modern software systems. 
 
In this conversation, Matthew helps highlight the real impact of digital transformation on companies, and what it means for team coordination. Join us as we explore key insights from his and Manuel’s book ‘Team Topologies’, low-code development platforms, API-drivenness, observability, and the impact of market validation and software-centric ways of organizing.
 
Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our Medium publication: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast-S2E20-Matthew-Skelton 
 
To find out more about Matthew’s work:
 
> Website: https://teamtopologies.com/ 
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewskelton/ 
> Team Topologies Academy: https://academy.teamtopologies.com/ 
> Team Topologies Partner Program: https://teamtopologies.com/partner-program

Other references and mentions:

> Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais, Team Topologies: Organizing Business and Technology Teams for Fast Flow, 2019: https://www.amazon.com/Team-Topologies-Organizing-Business-Technology/dp/1942788819  
> IT Revolution: https://itrevolution.com/ 
> Domain Driven Design Community: https://www.dddcommunity.org/
> Core Domain Charts: https://github.com/ddd-crew/core-domain-charts
https://www.melconway.com/Home/Committees_Paper.html
> “Building Extensible Platforms”, Shopify case study: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGNA8GnOOE&feature=youtu.be 

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music

Recorded on 7 June 2021.

S2 Ep. 20 Matthew Skelton – On the Convergence between Software and Organizations

MAQE, a digital firm in Bangkok, is working to adopt the Rendanheyi by marrying Haier's philosophy and designing its own playbook, including a set of conditional contracts tailored to the specific context of a SME technology services company in Thailand.

In this session, we had the chance to get into MAQE's own exploration and transition towards the Rendanheyi directly through the words of Andreas Holmer, its co-founder, and CEO.

Through an open conversation, we have specifically touched upon how to take inspiration from the Rendanheyi to:

- Infuse entrepreneurship into small service-based businesses 
- Augment agile structures through micro-enterprises
- Integrate sociocratic / holacratic governance with Rendanheyi's platforms and artifacts
- Incorporate and share ownership of new businesses through contracts 
- Nurture human potential and specific values without sacrificing profit

#11 MAQE's Journey Towards The Rendanheyi

Dark Matter Labs is a multidisciplinary design team developing new working methods for system change. Today we’re joined by Indy Johar and Annette Dhami to discuss their mission of discovering, designing and developing the institutional ‘dark matter’ that supports a more democratic, distributed and sustainable future.
 
Indy Johar is a founding Director of 00 and Dark Matter Labs. An architect by training, Indy is a Senior Innovation Associate with the Young Foundation and a visiting Professor at the University of Sheffield. He co-founded Impact Hub Birmingham and Open Systems Lab, and was a member of the RSA’s Inclusive Growth Commission. He is a thought leader in system change, the future of urban infrastructure finance, outcome-based investment, and the future of governance.
 
Annette Dhami spent over a decade building, operating and driving mission-led (and often place-based) organisations and networks, including Impact Hubs (Brixton and Islington) and the Plymouth Social Enterprise Network, exploring how we organise, finance, use buildings, build networks and create economies for shared benefit. Annette joined Dark Matter Labs in 2020 to focus more deeply on how we organise and operate (in theory and creating this in practice) for transition. She holds the organising and operational work of the international Dark Matter Labs ecosystem (read more about that here), and explores these organising questions more deeply in the multi-partner #BeyondtheRules project.
 
 
A full transcript of the episode can be found on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/dark-matter-labs/
 
Key highlights:
We discussed:
Dark Matter Labs’ ambitions for creating a real learning organisation.
Governing by building learning capacity inside organisations.
The theory of genius to make people accountable through care and learning.
The ability to work diagonally across local and global dimensions.
Creating markets and new theories of value. 
The tension and spectrum between “patronising” governance and fostering autonomous (almost autocratic) entrepreneurialism.
Making space for care and innovation at every point in the system.
 
To find out more about Annette Dhami and Indy Johar’s work:
 
> Website: https://darkmatterlabs.org/ 
> Annette’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annette-dhami-1735554a/
> Indy’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indy-johar-b440b010/ 
 
Other references and mentions:

> DM Notes Series: https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/
> The Beyond The Rules project: https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/beyondtherules-e3ab44f0dc3 

> Organising #BeyondTheRules series:
https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org/organising-beyondtherules-at-dark-matter-labs-e59e4f5dd32f 

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://boundaryless.io/podcast-music

Recorded on 26 October 2021.

S3 Ep. 2 Annette Dhami and Indy Johar – Dark Matter Labs: rethinking organizing #BeyondTheRules

What does it mean to create convivial organisations and platforms? Today we explore the relationship between technology and society with L. M. Sacasas – and what we can learn from the philosopher Ivan Illich (1926-2002).  L. M. Sacasas is the associate director of the Christian Study Center of Gainesville, Florida and author of The Convivial Society, a newsletter about technology and society. Michael has written for The New Atlantis, The New Inquiry, Real Life Magazine, Mere Orthodoxy, Rhizomes, The American, and Second Nature Journal. 
 
Ivan Illich was a philosopher, Roman Catholic priest, and critic of the institutions of modern Western culture, who addressed contemporary practices in education, medicine, work, energy use, transportation, and economic development. 
 
In this episode, we explore what we mean by conviviality, having tools to empower – not de-skill – humans, the necessity of limits, re-envisioning the good life, and how Ivan Illich has such a big global following in today's society. 
 
 
A full transcript of the episode can be found on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/l-m-sacasas/
 
Key highlights we discussed:
> The meaning of conviviality and the influence of Ivan Illich on L. M. Sacasas’ work
> The accuracy of Ivan Illich’s predictions on mental health, education and work
> Examples of convivial tools 
> Identifying how to measure progress and where to aim better
> Why the real world needs to embrace virtual reality 
 
 
To find out more about Michael’s work:
 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/LMSacasas  
>  The Convivial Society newsletter: https://theconvivialsociety.substack.com/ 
 

Other references and mentions:

> The Abolition of Institutions: On Ivan Illich with LM Sacasas and Nina Power: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast-episode/podcast//id1195362330?i=1000528978020
> Ivan Illich, Tools for Conviviality, 1973: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1842300113
> Ivan Illich, Deschooling Society, 1971: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschooling_Society
> Thinking After Ivan Illich: https://thinkingafterivanillich.net/
> David Chalmers, Reality+, 2022: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393635805
> PD Smith, Reality+ by David J Chalmers review – are we living in a simulation?, https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/19/reality-by-david-j-chalmers-review-are-we-living-in-a-simulation
> Boundaryless Whitepaper, New Foundations of Platform-Ecosystem Thinking — Designing Products and Organizations for a changing world, 2020: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/DOWNLOAD-NF



Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://boundaryless.io/podcast-music

Recorded on 20 January 2022.

S3 Ep. 8 L. M. Sacasas – Building a convivial society: autonomy, tools, scale and capabilities

Ethan Buchman is the co-founder of the Cosmos network and serves as the CEO of Informal Systems. Informal Systems is a member-driven worker’s cooperative building software that enables trustworthy relationships between protocols and people to flourish. Ethan also serves as the President of the Interchain Foundation which funds and coordinates development of public goods in the Cosmos ecosystem.

Tune in to this discussion as we explore the current ‘moment’ blockchain is experiencing and the implications of having a community computer. We also discuss the personal computer revolution, polycentricity, and how Informal Systems is organized to enable their employees to self-organize.  
 
A full transcript of the episode can be found on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/ethan-buchman/ 
 
Key highlights we discussed:
> Where blockchain fits in with the history of computing
> The concept of embedded cooperativism
> The role of sovereignty and multi-chain interoperability 
> Standardization and commodification
> How individuals can participate in structural change
> How Informal Systems is structured through a high trust environment and ‘promises’
 
To find out more about Ethan’s work:
 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/buchmanster 
> Website: https://ebuchman.github.io/     

Other references and mentions:

> Karl Polanyi, The Great Transformation, 1944: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Transformation-Political-Economic-Origins/dp/080705643X 
> Informal Systems: https://informal.systems/
> Informal Systems Twitter: https://twitter.com/informalinc 
> Informal Systems’ internal organisation: workflow.informal.systems   
> Cosmos: https://cosmos.network/ 

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://boundaryless.io/podcast-music

Recorded on 16 February 2022

S3 Ep. 10 Ethan Buchman – Why Blockchain should be plural: Cosmos and Inter-Blockchain Communication

Chase Chapman is a DAO researcher at Metropolis, focused on exploring how DAOs will shape the way humans think about and engage in work. She is an angel investor, host of “On the Other Side”, a podcast exploring the human side of web3, and spends most of her time collaborating with and writing about DAOs.

DAOs - Decentralized Autonomous Organizations - represents one of the most interesting concepts in the blockchain enabled space. A DAO is a self-governing organization that is independent from any central authority, and its rules are enforced by smart contracts.

In this episode Chase helps us to better understand how DAOs have evolved over the last few years and to explore today’s DAO landscape. In the conversation we also dive deeper into the possibilities of developing an inter-DAO evolutionary organization model and debate the importance of developing organizational building blocks that can interoperate across DAOs and - eventually - traditional organizations.

With Chase we also discussed how the atomic unit of the DAO (and organizing) is not the individual contributor, but rather the small group, and how DAO tooling is moving from financial tools to cultural and organizational tools. We talked about how traditional organizations can also use this approach (or maybe not) and how DAOs can possibly help governments develop public policies  that facilitate social and ecological transition.

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website:

Key highlights from the conversation:

👉 The DAO Landscape has changed: before it was heavy on automation, now it is more a way for company to become more democratic;
👉 DAO is a modular ecosystem composed by a “quite monolithic DAO” community;
👉 Trustware vs. Socialware; 
👉 How Metropolis’ pods help small group to play a role in the DAO system;
👉 How DAOs can work in a traditional context.

To find out more about Chase’s work:

👉 Chase’s podcast - On The Other Side https://www.othersidepod.xyz/ 
👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/chaserchapman 
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chasechapman/ 
 
👉 Chase's appearance on Kevin Owoki's podcast Green pill where she spoke about Socialware and Trustware https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/34-evolutionary-daos-with-chase-chapman
👉 The original post on Socialware and Trustware https://blog.metropolis.space/scaling-trust-in-daos-trustware-vs-socialware/ 

Other references and mentions: 
👉The DAO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_DAO_(organization)
👉 Cryptokitties https://www.cryptokitties.co/
👉 Metalabel https://www.metalabel.xyz/
👉 David Ronfelt’s TIMN framework: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2005/P7967.pdf 
👉 Balaji Srinivasan’s  - the Network State: https://thenetworkstate.com/the-network-state 

Chase’s Suggested breadcrumbs (things listeners should check out):

👉 “A Prehistory of DAOs” by Kei Kreutler https://gnosisguild.mirror.xyz/t4F5rItMw4-mlpLZf5JQhElbDfQ2JRVKAzEpanyxW1Q 
👉 “Life after lifestyle” by Toby Shorin https://subpixel.space/entries/life-after-lifestyle/

Find out more about the show and the research we do at Boundaryless at
https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ 

Recorded on 19 September 2022.

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/
 
👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 
👉 Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts/ 
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/ 

Music 
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

The Boundaryless Conversations Podcast - Season 4

S4 Ep.01 Chase Chapman - Modularity, Autonomy and Agreements: the future of DAOs and Orgs

Bonnitta Roy is a pioneer in education. She’s the founder of Alderlore Insight Center, the POP-UP School, and C-LABS. She teaches insight practices for individuals who are developing meta-cognitive skills, (ed: thinking about thinking) and hosts collective insight retreats for groups interested in breaking away from typical limiting patterns of thought. In addition, she also teaches a masters course in consciousness studies and trans-personal psychology at the Graduate Institute.

As an educator, Bonnitta Roy is focused on what she defines as Post Formal Actors: people who have strong intuition towards post formal thinking  without necessarily being sophisticated thinkers (yet) and who see formal rules as optional. According to Bonnitta this phenomenon occurs in different settings, for example  students who start to see their teachers don’t have educational authority.  Without proper pedagogical support or guidance to become more sophisticated thinkers, however, post formal actors can be seen only as "deviants" rather than a resource.

On the other hand, because of their skills, post formal actors can give a new perspective and a new way to see and do things, embracing the challenges we  face. They can, as Bonnitta says "hedge against social collapse". 

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/bonnitta-roy/
 
Key highlights from the conversation:

Post formal actors (PFA): how this definition was born;
The mismatch between skills we learn today in school and what we really need in life;
PFA as  a positive force for the world and for organisations
Tokenization of value and what it means for organizing 
The importance of the stability in a  system
Ontological design and modernity as "defuturing"

To find out more about Bonnitta Roy’s work:
 
👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/bonnittaroy 
👉 Website: https://bonnittaroy.medium.com/ 
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bonnittaroy/ 

👉 Alderlore Insight Center https://alderloreinsightcenter.com/ 
👉 POP-UP School https://bonnittaroy.substack.com/ 
👉 C-LABS https://www.c-labs.net/ 
👉 The Graduate Institute https://learn.edu/ 

Other references and mentions: 
👉The episode of Daily of the Month Podcast where Bonnitta and Simone first explored a convergence around Post-Formal actors https://www.agile-podcast.de/blog/folge-29-21st-century-human-thesis/
👉Post formal Thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postformal_thought 
👉 Robert Kegan works
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kegan#In_Over_Our_Heads
👉 Developmental stage theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_stage_theories 
👉 Bayo Akomolafe: https://www.bayoakomolafe.net/about 
👉 Nora Bateson episode https://boundaryless.io/podcast/nora-bateson/  
👉 The Manifesto of Ontological Design https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/the-manifesto-of-ontological-design-7fdb19169107 


Bonitta’s suggested breadcrumbs (things listeners should check out):

👉 Doomer optimism podcast https://www.doomeroptimism.com/
👉 One Hundred Thousand Beating Hearts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoQWLK8-CYE 
👉 The Salt of the earth (trailer) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OivMlWXtWpY 

Recorded on 19 September 2022.

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/ 

Get in touch with Boundaryless:
 
👉 Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_   
👉 Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts/  
👉 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo/  

Music 
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

S4 Ep.02 Bonnitta Roy - Post-Formal Actors inside Organizations: from Deviants to Lifeboats

In this episode we talked to Tom Davenport and Laks Srinivasan from Return on AI Institute (ROAI) about how AI is empowering and challenging organizational models worldwide. 

Tom is a world-renowned thought leader and author on AI. He is the President’s Distinguished Professor of Information Technology and Management at Babson College. Laks is a data and analytics executive and he is a co-founder and Managing Director at ROAI and former CEO of Opera Solutions (ElectrifAI now). 

Tom and Laks explore with us how different forms of artificial intelligence might transform product teams at companies around the globe. In the second part of this episode, Tom and Laks offer concrete examples of companies that have created new business models powered by AI, as well as suggestions on what traditional organizations should look at when preparing to adopt artificial intelligence.

At Boundaryless we're partnering with ROAI to explore the convergence between AI and Platforms, check out our research and services here: https://blss.io/ROAI

Key highlights 
👉AI is becoming pervasive in large organizations, but many are still struggling to get meaningful value out of it.
👉 Companies that “do AI” vs (digital native) “AI companies”
👉 Platform business models (as a form of ecosystem) are based on AI
👉 How AI could transform product teams 
👉The challenge with AI is multi-dimensional: involves organization, leadership, culture, data and technology.
👉AI replaces tasks rather than entire jobs.
👉 Strategy-by-doing applies to AI: think big, start small, fail fast, and invest where things are working.
👉Increased awareness among executives is needed to develop their intuition around AI.

Topics (chapters):

(00:00) Intro notes and welcoming of Thomas H. Davenport and Laks Srinivasan
(03:16) How AI is empowering organizations or challenging organizational models. 
(08:11) AI as a matter of doctrine in organizations: yes or no?
(11:56) Platform business model (as a form of ecosystem) based on AI
(17:13) How AI could transform product teams
(24:50) Example of companies which have created new business models powered by AI
(33:40) What should traditional organizations look at when preparing to adopt AI?
(42:02) To integrate more AI into the process? Think big but start small.
(49:58) Thomas and Laks’ breadcrumbs

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/tom-davenport-and-laks-srinivasan/
 
To find out more about Tom Davenport’s work:
 
-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/tdav 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davenporttom 
-  Website: https://www.tomdavenport.com 

To find out more about Laks Srinivasan’s work:

-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/LaksSrinivasan 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laks-srinivasan 
-  Website: https://roaiinstitute.com 

Other references and mentions:

-  Working with AI https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262047241/working-with-ai
-  All-in On AI: How Smart Companies Win Big with Artificial Intelligence https://www.amazon.com/All-AI-Companies-Artificial-Intelligence-ebook/dp/B09Q6KHWVT 
- Ping An Group https://group.pingan.com
- CCC Intelligent Solutions https://cccis.com
- USAA https://www.usaa.com
- Amara's Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Amara#Amara's_law 
- The Return on AI Playbook Podcast https://sites.libsyn.com/411860     

Tom and Laks’ suggested breadcrumbs (things listeners should check out):
-  Being a fire volunteering for fire control or, in general, being a volunteer for something
-  How Generative AI Is Changing Creative Work https://hbr.org/2022/11/how-generative-ai-is-changing-creative-work

Recorded on 28 October 2022.

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_
-  Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo 

Music 
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

The Boundaryless Conversations

S04 Ep. 08 Thomas H. Davenport and Laks Srinivasan – Making AI-ready Organizations

Jocelynn Pearl is a biotech scientist, podcaster, and company builder. She co-founded LabDAO, a web3 marketplace for life science research, and curates The DeSci Wiki, which tracks projects and DAOs in the web3 x science sector. She is also the host of the Lady Scientist Podcast and of the UltraRare The Podcast, a show featuring leaders in DeSci.

DeSci or Decentralized Science (like the acronym DeFi) expands some of the principles of blockchain technology and distributed ownership to science. The impact is potentially huge in many aspects: science communities' rules, funding and incentive structures, daily work habits, intellectual property rights, etc.

Thanks to our conversation with Jocelynn, we discover the potential of DeSci by looking into the organizational aspects of decentralized communities and exploring which science branches may benefit most from its potential. Finally, Jocelynn also mentions how companies are evolving the DeSci vertical, probably providing one of the best use cases of Web3 so far. 

Key highlights 
👉 DeSci - one of the best use cases for Web3 so far
👉 Democratization and new paths to independent funding
👉 Fixing broken incentive structures in research 
👉 Examining potential drawbacks and limits of less institutionalized science
👉 Impacts of DeSci over science institutions
👉 The emergence of broader collaborations and types of scientists

Topics (chapters)
(00:00) 	Jocelynn Pearl’s opening quote
(02:35)		What decentralized science is  
(07:01)		Which major institutions will be transformed by DeSci?
(10:51)		The DeSci impact in the short term 
(17:34)		Funding and structions of science: how they currently work 
(23:00)		Everything is “tokenizible”?
(25:39)		Will there be freelance scientists?
(31:17)		What about tools?
(35:02)		Collaboration and ontological convergence
(39:34)		Beyond healthcare
(40:44)		Jocelynn Pearl’s next projects
(41:38)		Jocelynn Pearl’s breadcrumbs

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/jocelynn-pearl 

To find out more about Jocelynn’s work
-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/jocelynnpearl 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynnpearlphd 
- Website: https://www.jocelynnpearl.com 
- UltraRare The Podcast https://rss.com/podcasts/ultrarare
- Lady Scientist Podcast https://rss.com/podcasts/ladyscientistpodcast 

Other references and mentions

- LabDAO (on Discord) https://discord.com/invite/labdao 
- DeSci Wiki https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aQC6zn-eXflSmpts0XGE7CawbUEHwnL6o-OFXO52PTc/edit?usp=sharing
- Reinventing Organizations https://www.reinventingorganizations.com
- talentDAO https://www.talentdao.io 
- Smart Contract Research Forum https://www.smartcontractresearch.org 
- Gassing the Miracle Machine, Not Boring https://www.notboring.co/p/gassing-the-miracle-machine 
- Crowd Funded Cures https://crowdfundedcures.org
- Flagship Pioneering https://www.flagshippioneering.com 
- NFX Bio: https://www.nfx.com/post/launching-nfx-bio 
- Unbundling Work from Employment - Li Jin https://li.substack.com/p/unbundling-work-from-employment  
- Scispot https://www.scispot.com 
- Benchling ​​https://www.benchling.com 
- Science Exchange https://ww2.scienceexchange.com/s 

Jocelynn’s suggested breadcrumbs (things listeners should check out)
-  Reinventing Discovery - Michael A. Nielsen https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691202846/reinventing-discovery 
- Working in Public - Nadia Eghbal https://press.stripe.com/working-in-public 

Recorded on 18 October 2022

Get in touch with Boundaryless

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast

-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 
-  Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo 

Music 
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

S04 Ep. 09 Jocelynn Pearl – The best use case of Web3 so far: DeSci

Scott Brinker takes us on a journey exploring Hubspot’s fascinating platform strategy, where competitive overlaps between Hubspot’s own hubs and products and third-party developers in the ecosystem are treated as a good thing, and where recognizing and serving the “joint customer need” is the real focus.    

Scott is VP Platform Ecosystem at HubSpot, helping to grow and nurture the company's community of technology partners. He writes the chiefmartec.com blog, covering marketing technology management, and is the author of the best-selling book “Hacking Marketing”. Previously, he was the co-founder and CTO of Ion Interactive. He holds degrees in computer science from Columbia University and Harvard University and an MBA from MIT. 

Serving multiple niche customer needs with modular platforms: is this possible? Hubspot’s success seems to confirm. With Scott we take a closer look at Hubspot's approach at figuring out what makes the collaboration between a platform and its ecosystem work. We see what makes a product portfolio and an organizational structure more keen to meet complex and evolving customer needs through collaboration, all while keeping everything connected as one boundaryless ecosystem.

Key highlights 

👉 How the practice of marketing has evolved with technology in the last decades
👉 Even if so much software is now in the cloud, customization (vs pre-packaging) is still only in the beginning
👉 Serving joint customer needs across products 
👉 Structuring modularity inside the organization
👉 Competitive overlaps in the ecosystem is a good thing
👉 Building legitimacy and trust in the ecosystem requires helping partners to evolve 

Topics (chapters):

(00:00)	Scott Brinker's quote
(00:54)		Introducing Scott Brinker
(02:33)		How marketing has changed and its intersection with technology
(09:27)		Evolution around SaaS and the fact that We live in an ecosystem world
(12:38)		Approaching product design and development with customer needs and extensibility points in mind
(18:24)		Balancing coherence and diversity in the “tool chain”
(35:08)		Internal and external strategy - stability and change 
(41:07)		Boundaries are never static between platforms and partners
(44:47)		Commodities become part of the core platform
(51:58)		Scott Brinker's breadcrumbs

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: 


To find out more about Scott’s work:

-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/chiefmartec 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sjbrinker 
- Website: https://chiefmartec.com

Other references and mentions:

- HubSpot:  https://ecosystem.hubspot.com 
- Wardley mapping: https://learnwardleymapping.com/introduction 

Scott’s suggested breadcrumbs (things listeners should check out):

- Hacking Marketing: Agile Practices to Make Marketing Smarter, Faster, and More Innovative: https://www.amazon.com/Hacking-Marketing-Practices-Smarter-Innovative/dp/1119183170 
- Antifragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragile_(book)  

Recorded on 13 January 2023.

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast

-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 
-  Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo 

Music 

Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

S04 Ep. 10 Scott Brinker – Serving joint customer needs through a modular Platform at HubSpot

Alberto Brandolini joins the podcast as a sparring partner in our exploration of one of the most “burning” issues in our research: the intrinsic links between language, software and organizational design. We explore the role of domain-driven design and, more generally, the role of visualization and context mapping in the process that we call "ontological convergence".

Alberto, EventStorming creator, Domain-Driven Design (DDD) legend and unconventional entrepreneur, is also famous for the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle aka Brandolini’s law. 

He proudly runs Avanscoperta, a hub for inventing, promoting, and spreading new ideas around software development. 

During the chat we explore the ways  software drives the adoption of common models and languages, and how the boundaries between technology and business, between one team and another, and even between organizations themselves, are blurring.

Alberto observes that, the more you go distributed, the more having clean, well visualized, “bounded contexts” really becomes a key factor in effectiveness and success for organizations.

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/alberto-brandolini.

Key highlights:

👉 How ubiquitous can language be
👉 The best way to speed up reaching agreement? Visualizing instead of talking. 
👉 Most no-code and low-code approaches are designed around a paradigm that is antithetic to domain-driven design. 
👉 Domain-driven design suggests to be aware of the cost of your architectural decisions and the evolutions of these forces over time
👉 When the quality of a component makes it an obvious choice, it’s a good way to create standards
👉 The hardest part for remote-first organizations is finding a way to make distributed decisions on critical issues

Topics (chapters):

(00:00)	Alberto Brandolini quote
(00:56)		Alberto Brandolini introduction
(01:33)		What domain-driven design is
(16:14)		The cost-benefit of agreeing		
(24:05)		Domain-driven design approach in complex environment
(28:19)		How no-code and low-code system relate to Domain-Driven Design  
(38:28)		The role of Domain-Driven Design in driving standards into markets and ecosystems
(48:22)		Talent useful for a company like Avanscoperta
(51:24)		Alberto Brandolini's breadcrumbs


To find out more about Alberto’s work:

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/ziobrando  
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brando   
- Website: https://www.avanscoperta.it  

Other references and mentions:

- Brandolini's law (bullshit asymmetry principle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law 
- EventStorming https://www.eventstorming.com 
- Developing the ubiquitous language https://thedomaindrivendesign.io/developing-the-ubiquitous-language 
- The Conformist pattern https://www.markhneedham.com/blog/2009/07/04/domain-driven-design-conformist 

Alberto’s suggested breadcrumbs (things listeners should check out):
- Domain-Driven Design Distilled - https://www.informit.com/store/domain-driven-design-distilled-9780134434421 
- Implementing Domain-Driven Design (Red Book) https://www.amazon.com/Implementing-Domain-Driven-Design-Vaughn-Vernon/dp/0321834577 
- Introducing EventStorming (The Book) https://www.eventstorming.com/book 
- David Sibbet https://davidsibbet.com 
- Dave Gray http://www.xplaner.com 
- Domain-Driven Design Crew · GitHub https://github.com/ddd-crew
- Avanscoperta blog: https://blog.avanscoperta.it/ 

Recorded on 09 January 2023.

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast

-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 
-  Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo 

Music 

Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

S04 Ep. 12. Alberto Brandolini - On Domain-Driven Design and the challenges of reaching Agreements

Residuality Theory - in very few words - is a method of designing software architectures inspired by how the most talented architects do it: i.e. starting from the stress conditions that the system could eventually face as it operates.

Barry O'Reilly is a software architect with 25 years of experience in the IT industry. He has held leading roles at global software companies and has spent many years educating architects.

Residuality theory looks at the world not as a bunch of static things or still pictures, but as a constantly moving set of processes which we can't really see and grasp. It requires designers to move away from a static view of the system: by letting the architecture design be inspired by its “stressors”, O'Reilly thinks that not only can we design more resilient systems but also more efficient ones.

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/barry-oreilly‎


Highlights 

👉Static representation of reality as a practice of software architecture is embedded in Western philosophy 
👉Residuality is a way to look at the world as a constantly shifting, moving set of processes 
👉The residue is what remains from the system after it breaks down: it's the leftover of the system. And those leftovers will define the future of the software system
👉Criticality as an indication of the system’s ability to function across a wide range of attractors
👉The impossibility to separate organizational design from software architecture


Topics


(00:00) Barry’s quote	
(00:59)	 Introduction
(02:12)	 What residuality theory is
(12:59)	 Residuality: philosophical background.
(18:24)	 Residuality: from software to organizations.
(27:01)	 Residuality and micro services: is a match possible?
(36:13)	 Is residuality fit for the society we’re living in, or is it a next generation’s thing?
(43:03)	 How to (easily) adopt a residuality approach
(48:48) Barry’s breadcrumbs	
	
More about Barry’s work:


- Twitter: https://twitter.com/technologytulip     
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-o-reilly-b924657     
- Website: https://www.blacktulip.se 
- Nassim Nicholas Taleb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb 
- Antifragile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragile_(book) 
- NK model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK_model 
- Transcendental idealism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_idealism 
- Post-structuralism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism 
- The Biological Reality of Organizing  https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/alicia-juarrero
- Bezos’ famous API mandate https://nordicapis.com/the-bezos-api-mandate-amazons-manifesto-for-externalization/ 
- Characteristics of decision-making during coding https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303515570_Characteristics_of_decision-making_during_coding 
- Promise Theory http://markburgess.org/promises.html 
- Cynefin framework https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework 
- Building Scalable Organizations that can Deal with Uncertainty https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/dave-snowden/  

Barry’s suggested breadcrumbs:

- Residuality Theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96IqczEd88A 
- Ralph D. Stacey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_D._Stacey  
- Complexity and Organizational Reality Uncertainty https://www.routledge.com/Complexity-and-Organizational-Reality-Uncertainty-and-the-Need-to-Rethink/Stacey/p/book/9780415556477 
- The Reflective Practitioner https://rauterberg.employee.id.tue.nl/lecturenotes/DDM110%20CAS/Schoen-1983%20Reflective%20Practitioner.pdf

Recorded on 22 February 2023.

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast


-  Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_ 
-  Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts 
-  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo 

Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

S04 Ep. 14. Barry O'Reilly Software architecture for a rapidly changing world

We rarely (if ever) get to host a cyborg anthropologist on our podcast, so we are thrilled to have Amber Case join us as a special guest for this episode. 

Amber, who works at the intersection of human and technology interactions, shares her journey into envisioning what a calm technology is. Calm Technology is a design philosophy that advocates for technology to integrate into our lives, enhancing our ability to focus rather than distracting us. She takes us through everyday objects that have been designed this way and leaves us challenging what’s really “transparent technology”?

We stretch the boundaries to include a conversation on organizations and governance: a leading thread is that of keeping asking questions and not drinking the kool-aid of truthiness in how we think about tech and organizing. 

Tune in to this provocation that leaps into the future of technology, its impact on society, and how you can navigate these landscapes with mindful intent.

This podcast started on a personal note - Amber shared her experience being a child of engineers, and also having early exposure to the natural world - both of which she believes set the precedence for what she does today. 

She takes us through a wealth of experience she gained in her multifaceted career - having been a renowned book author, TED speaker, serial startup founder, advisor, co-founder of DAOs, Research Director at the Meta Governance Project, and most recently the founder of the Calm Tech Institute.

Amber advocates for a future where technology "gets out of your way and lets you live your life."

This episode will elicit new questions for you and your career.

This episode has been occasionally recorded as “sound only”.

Key Highlights

👉 Critical intersection between human behavior and technology, emphasizing the need for a deeper understanding of our digital coexistence.
👉 Calm Technology as an essential way to creating designs that respect human attention without overwhelming users.
👉Building tools that help users focus on the task and not the tool.
👉 Complexities of governance in technological and organizational contexts, with a focus on the potentials and pitfalls of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs).
👉 Ways to bring a shift towards innovations that serve humanity and contribute to a more equitable future.
👉 Developing a questioning mindset for driving meaningful technological advancements.


Topics /chapters

(00:00) Building Calm Technology and Organizations - Intro
(02:09) The start of a cyborg anthropologist
(11:19) What happens as Technology fades into the background/ disappears?
(19:55) Technology as facilitator vs. distractor
(31:06) How to limit and grow technology
(48:53) Organizations shaping itself to build better technology
(59:37) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://boundaryless.io/podcast/Amber-Case/

Episode recorded on February 22, 2024


Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast

Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_
Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo

Music
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

The Boundaryless Conversation Podcast: Season 5

#96 - Building Calm Technology and Organizations with Amber Case

“Viable System Model” expert Mark Lambertz joins us on today’s podcast to help us unfold organizing in complex ecosystems. 

Mark, a long-time Agile practitioner and a renowned expert on the Viable System Model has a deep understanding and a curious mindset toward all things organizing. We met Mark as an Organizational Coach at Bosch, where he’s driving the adoption of key concepts of the VSM. From his extensive experience, Mark has helped us understand how to use the VSM lens to build autonomous and self-sustaining organizational systems. 

He takes us through the model’s components and practical applications and compares it with other organizational frameworks that we use widely, more specifically, Boundaryless’ Rendanheyi-inspired implementation of the Platform Organization with the 3EO Framework. 

The conversation - where we discover a lot of resonance between the two perspectives - is filled with valuable insights from the ground and helps you move towards a more inclusive model that balances operational efficiency with strategic adaptability.

Tune in, and don’t miss out. 

As one of the first attempts to use cybernetics in organizational management, the Viable System Model was conceived by Stafford Beer in his book - “The Brain of the Firm” in the 70s.

Mark connects the dots in this podcast and explains why cybernetics is important for building adaptive organizations. The podcast highlights the importance of viewing organizations as adaptive, complex ecosystems emphasizing decentralization, coordination, and collective and emergent strategic planning. 

He takes us through the depths of VSM, explaining how it starts with an outside-in perspective, focusing on the environment, and then further breaks down the 5 systems within VSM. 

In this conversation, you get practical insights into incorporating a VSM informed perspective in your organization, helping you stay dynamic and ever-evolving.

Key Highlights
👉 The Viable System Model (VSM) is crucial for understanding and designing organizations that sustain themselves through complex environments.
👉 VSM emphasizes starting with an outside-in perspective, focusing on the environment, customers, and markets first.
👉 VSM incorporates a form of hierarchy based on responsibility and inclusiveness, aiming to preserve the whole while allowing for local interests and self-organization.
👉 VSM includes five key systems to ensure organizational adaptability: operational units, value production, tactical management, future planning, and organizational identity. 
👉 VSM has a fractal nature meaning each operational unit contains its systems, mirroring the larger organizational structure. 
👉 The Rendanheyi/3EO model complements VSM by emphasizing decentralized decision-making and enabling constraints.
👉 The future of organizational design is evolving, with an increasing emphasis on creativity, optionality, and diversity. 


Topics /chapters
(00:00) Decoding Viable System Model - Intro
(01:27) Introducing Mark and VSM
(13:12) Hierarchies and Structures in VSM
(16:13) Fractal Structure of VSM
(22:12) Orchestrating the organization, market, and VSM
(27:20) Culminating learnings from VSM, Rendanheyi, and 3EO 
(39:46) Using the VSM Framework  
(44:09) Coming of Age of Organizational Design and Development
(47:45) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions 

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/mark-lambertz

Episode recorded on May 10, 2024

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast

Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_
Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo


Music
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

#102 - Decoding the Viable System Model with Mark Lambertz

Season 7 of the Boundaryless Conversations Podcast launches September 30th!

Join global thinkers and practitioners as we explore:

- Platform–Ecosystem Thinking in a changing world
- The impact of AI on how we build products and organize at scale
- New approaches to Regenerative Organizing and sustainable innovation

👉 Subscribe now and stay ahead of change:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Boundaryless-pdt-3eo/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5TFF8qgtS1IKMxCEhh3yGU
Soundcloud: https://on.soundcloud.com/3E9wRYAtDt0AVAWjjI

🔎 Learn more and dive into research:
https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

💡 Stay connected with Boundaryless:

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless
- Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo

🎵 Music by Liosound / Walter Mobilio → https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

The Boundaryless Conversation Podcast: Season 6

Season 7 of the Boundaryless Conversations Podcast | Starts Sept 30 – Innovation, AI & Ecosystems

Roger Martin, one of the world’s most influential business thinkers and former Dean of the Rotman School of Management, joined us on this episode to talk about all things strategy.
He breaks down how organizations can keep up with the dynamism and complexity of it all: the evolution of strategy across the decades, digital transformation, decentralization’s impact, and the latest frontier, the rapid adoption of AI and LLMs.

He challenges traditional approaches to strategy and impact measurement metrics like OKRs, stating, “Strategy is what you do, not what you say."
In this candid conversation, he also dispels the angst surrounding AI taking over strategy roles in organizations, highlighting why AI and LLMs are valuable for rapidly synthesizing information but lack the capacity for generating unique, strategic insights that require human judgment and creativity. 
Join us for this conversation filled with insights.

Known for his practical approach, Roger Martin—who’s authored many bestselling books, including “Playing to Win”—has guided thousands worldwide to make clear, actionable choices that drive competitive advantage. 
In the conversation, we also touch upon themes of risk-taking and the importance of empowering leaders to think strategically at every level of the organization. He argues that teams should be able to challenge ideas and push boundaries, all of which are vital for sparking real innovation. 

Key Highlights
👉 Leaders should act as strategic coaches, guiding teams to align with bigger goals and fostering a culture of proactive decision-making.
👉 Finding the right balance between centralization and decentralization empowers teams with autonomy while maintaining a unified direction.
👉 Constructive tension within teams drives innovation by encouraging open challenges to ideas, leading to breakthrough solutions.
👉 Embracing intelligent risk-taking is crucial; it allows organizations to grow and adapt rather than playing it safe and missing out on opportunities.
👉 Avoiding one-size-fits-all frameworks is crucial; each organization’s strategy should be uniquely tailored to its specific context.
👉 AI and LLMs serve as powerful tools for rapid analysis and synthesis but cannot replace, human strategic judgment.

Topics /chapters
(00:00)	Doing Strategy in a World of Ruthless Change - intro
(00:55)	Roger Martin
(02:48)	Strategy Evolution over 20 Years
(07:21)	Centralization vs Decentralization: Where to Apply in the Organization?
(16:03)	Fragmented Decision Making and Creating Boundaries in Strategy
(24:20)	Building Entrepreneurship in Organizations
(35:09)	Collaboration vs. Competition in a High Resource Environment
(39:37)	Creating Shared Value
(46:37)	AI, LLMs, and the future of Strategy
(57:52)	Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/martin-roger/

Episode recorded on Oct 18, 2024

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_
Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo

Music
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

#108 - Doing Strategy in a World of Ruthless Change with Roger Martin

In a world of interconnected complexities, where futures can often feel bleak, there’s Tim Leberecht, founder of House of Beautiful Business, integrating beauty where we least expect it - business.
In this episode, he shares how beauty goes beyond aesthetics and speaks to truth, alignment, and the reminder of what humanity is capable of at its best. 

Tim highlights the tension many organizations face: on the one hand, movements pushing for visionary changes in value creation, like regenerative economics, participatory design, and co-ops; and on the other, reverting to short-term pragmatism, cutting programs such as DEI initiatives - and, how all of this is inherently a political stance that the organization is taking.

This conversation covers multiple themes - how organizations can avoid homogenization, especially at the time of AI; poly-opportunities to tackle the poly-crisis, decentralizing power, and much more.

As the author of “The Business Romantic”, Tim has always encouraged businesses to actively design spaces for imagination, emotional connection, and alternative ways of thinking.  

He explores the importance of fostering rituals like storytelling and resonance inside organizations that can serve as cultural anchors and inspire collective meaning.

Taking the example of how energy, mindfulness, and spirituality are now taking center stage in organizations, he states how often, qualities that are hard to quantify can lead to creating a holistic impact.
He further advocates for businesses to use technology intentionally for optimization while ring-fencing spaces for human creativity, cultural diversity, and the exploration of “what cannot be measured.”


Key Highlights
👉 Beauty in business is not just aesthetic but a way to reconnect with truth, humanity, and the best of what we are capable of, especially in times of crisis and uncertainty.
👉 Organizations must move beyond binary thinking, embracing ambiguity, complexity, and decentralized systems to thrive in a rapidly changing world.
👉 The poly-crisis we face demands a shift toward poly-opportunity—amplifying positive, interconnected forces like regenerative leadership, planetary citizenship, and emotional diversity.
👉 Businesses are inherently political as they shape relationships, value creation, and labor organization; denying this limits their potential to foster meaningful change.
👉 Technology, especially AI, risks driving homogenization and transactional relationships, but businesses must protect spaces for diverse human creativity and imagination.
👉 Feminist philosophy offers a path for businesses to operate in alignment with life, focusing on seasonality, ambiguity, and resistance to systems of control and violence.
👉 Rituals, storytelling, and emotional experiences are essential tools for building resonance, fostering cultural transformation, and generating hope within organizations.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Finding the Beauty in Business
(00:57) Introducing Tim Leberecht
(10:17):47 How can Organizations enact positive change?
(18:36) Imbibing a “Beauty in Business” mindset
(25:02) Bringing Diversity in Homogenized Research
(29:54) Feminism and the Complexity Mindset
(37:33) Building Organizations that Decentralize Power
(41:13) Poly-Opportunity to tackle the Poly-crisis
(45:12) Closing Thoughts and Breadcrumbs

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: ⁠https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/leberecht-tim⁠

Episode recorded on Dec 03, 2024

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at ⁠⁠boundaryless.io/resources/podcast⁠⁠

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Twitter: ⁠⁠twitter.com/boundaryless_⁠ ⁠
Website: ⁠⁠boundaryless.io/contacts⁠⁠
LinkedIn: ⁠⁠www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo⁠
⁠
Music
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: ⁠⁠blss.io/Podcast-Music⁠⁠

#112 - Finding the Beauty in Business with Tim Leberecht

Kara Pecknold, VP of Regenerative Design at Frog and a leading voice in sustainable innovation, joined us for a conversation on what it truly means to design for regeneration.
She breaks down the challenges and opportunities of embedding regenerative thinking into organisations, helping us explore how brands can move beyond green checklists toward a deeper, systemic approach that lies at the intersection of nature, culture, and business goals.
Highlighting that “Regenerative design can help businesses localise,” she also discusses a potential direction to navigate today’s global crises, thus requiring a reframing of business as we know it.
This episode invites us to imagine futures where businesses give back more than they take, offering a hopeful push we all need.

In this episode, Kara draws from her experience of guiding regenerative design with clients across diverse local contexts, helping us imagine the power of viewing business like nature. 
She speaks on how regenerative design cannot be siloed into CSR activities, and why it's important that it be tied to all parts of the organisation.
She also touches upon several frameworks tackling this problem, like biomimicry, the doughnut economy etc. - helping us put a practical approach to regeneration, rather than viewing it as an idealistic utopian future.
Tune in to discover how this future-focused approach can guide you through the complexities within the boundaries of today’s world.

Key Highlights
👉 Regenerative design encourages businesses to rethink growth by focusing on giving back more than they take from natural and social systems.
👉 Embedding regenerative thinking requires breaking silos - making it a company-wide commitment, not just a CSR initiative.
👉 Localising parts of your business can build resilience amid global disruptions like supply chain challenges and geopolitical shifts.
👉 Regeneration blends nature, culture, and business goals into an integrated systemic approach.
👉 Leadership buy-in at the top and empowerment at the grassroots are both essential for regeneration to take root.
👉 Limits and boundaries are vital concepts, challenging the endless-growth mindset and inspiring new business models.
👉 Biomimicry offers design inspiration by learning from nature’s time-tested strategies and cycles.
👉 Designing for regeneration means fostering creative disruption rather than clinging to business as usual.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Regenerative Business: What 
Does It Mean? - Intro
(01:24) Introducing Kara Pecknold
(03:10) The Personal Side of Transformation
(05:20) Tactical Implementation of Regenerative Design
(09:30) Defining the Natural Element
(12:23) Do customers seek a regenerative future?
(16:49) Navigating the Tension in Regenerative Indicators
(19:40) Does Regenerative Design Apply to Digital Companies?
(24:31) Bio-regionalism and Relocalization of Business
(28:15) Regenerative and Localized Organizational Design
(31:09) Impact on Organizational Operating Models
(33:27) Role of External Stakeholders
(35:22) Defining Regeneration
(36:04) Constraints and Limits within Regeneration
(41:09) Reimaging Design beyond the Classics
(45:27) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions


Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/pecknold-kara

Episode recorded on Apr 24, 2025

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Music
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#122 - Regenerative Business: What  Does It Mean? - with Kara Pecknold

Renowned author and complexity thinker Jennifer Garvey Berger, co-founder of Cultivating Leadership, joins us in this episode to explore how organisations can evolve by unlocking the mental traps that limit adaptive capacity.
She helps us reframe leadership as a practice that fosters engagement and thriving amid uncertainty, and guides us through why individual development is essential to creating truly functional and effective collectives.
She highlights gaps in organisations that often overlook the importance of actively attending to a team’s health, which harms the relationships and connections that hold systems together.
She shares a future-focused insight, stating that “organisations are not merely serving markets, but constantly co-creating them,” redefining the deep implications for how organisations define their purpose, value, and long-term responsibility.
This episode offers a powerful and timely reflection that embraces a more ecological and co-creative approach to organizing. Tune in.

Jennifer, widely known for her books “Unlocking Leadership Mindtraps” and “Changing on the Job”, has guided organisations worldwide in revisiting their mindtraps and reshaping traditional leadership.
In this episode, she continues to challenge conventional views of customer-centricity and urges organisations to recognise their role in shaping society and ecosystems, advocating for a purpose that is deeply embedded rather than merely performative.
On a timely note, she reflects on generational shifts in how people relate to work and meaning, alongside the rise of values-led business models that call for designing with longer horizons in mind.
She helps us stay present, emphasising it as essential for preparing for the future, and guides us in visualising and designing what it means to be a complexity-informed leader.

Key Highlights
👉 Value in complex systems is co-created and fluid - organisations must shift from simply "serving customer needs" to becoming conscious shapers of society.
👉 Younger generations are increasingly unwilling to invest their life force into organisations that prioritise profit over planetary purpose and human well-being.
👉 Leadership requires working with, not eliminating, conflict.
👉 Escaping cognitive mindtraps (like certainty, control, or simple stories) is essential for leaders navigating complexity and change.
👉 In complexity, defining and enacting value is a collective, recursive process - it’s shaped by individuals, teams, and ecosystems in continuous dialogue.
👉 Purpose in complexity-friendly organisations must be lived and systemic, not just performative; it's about genuine social contracts and ecosystem stewardship.
👉 True systemic change begins with slowing down, listening differently, and allowing space for emergence.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) 00:00 Leadership in Complexity: Purpose, Failure & Conflict - intro
(01:55) Introducing Jennifer Garvey Berger
(03:45) The Polarities in Leadership
(06:48) A new mindset at the Leadership Level
(08:54) Personal Pattern and Complex Ecosystems
(13:03) Operationalising individual and collective patterns
(16:49) The boundaries of leadership in an organization
(19:05) The “How” and the “What” to Addressing Complexity
(25:21) Organizational Readiness for Handling Complexity
(28:08) Are Purpose-Driven Markets the Future?
(42:37) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/garvey-jennifer 

Episode recorded on Jun 03, 2025

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#123 - Leadership in Complexity: Purpose, Failure & Conflict with Jennifer Garvey Berger

Sangeet Paul Choudary, globally recognised Platform Strategist and author, joins back on the Boundaryless Conversations Podcast for the 4th time. In this episode, the closing one for Season 6, we unpack how AI radically transforms the system of work.
Together, we explore how organisations can stay relevant as value is being redefined (intrinsic, economic, contextual), and how systemic design choices shape who benefits in a rapidly fragmenting economy. 
Drawing a powerful parallel to the shipping container revolution, Sangeet shows how AI’s impact operates at multiple levels, from simple task automation up to systemic change, urging us to think bigger than just isolated productivity gains.
He challenges the Techno-Optimist and Luddite narratives for assuming that competition rules and value distribution remain static in an AI world. Instead, Sangeet urges us to think about how the “pie” gets sliced.

Sangeet is a globally renowned author and has an upcoming book, “Reshuffle”. He is known for his deep systems thinking and sharp analysis of digital ecosystems.
In this episode, he explored how organisations must fundamentally rethink value (and their role) in an AI-transformed world and unpacks the often-overlooked link between constraints and value. 
He helps us distinguish local and systemic effects, urging leaders to stop optimising for short-term efficiencies, and challenges the outdated assumption that markets are uniform and competition is static.
If you’re curious to learn how your perception of innovation needs to shift, tune in.


Key Highlights
👉 In an AI-driven economy, organisations must redefine value in context, not just by markets, but by their unique purpose, position, and impact.
👉 Both techno-optimists and Luddites fall into the same trap: they assume the rules of competition stay the same. But as AI reshapes how the “pie” is sliced
👉 Traditional frameworks fall short - leaders must now navigate systems thinking, modularity, and multi-dimensional trade-offs.
👉 Strategic advantage lies in judgment, where decision-makers are directly impacted by their choices.
👉 Organisations must shift from task-level automation to system-level redesign.
👉 The future of leadership demands a long-term appetite for long-term planning - helping us thrive through uncertainty and systemic adaptation.
 
Topics /chapters
(00:00) How AI Restacks the System of Work - Intro 
(01:38) Introducing Sangeet Paul Choudary
(03:34) New Framing for assessing the impact of AI
(11:03) Deeper Impacts of AI on the System
(16:52) AI affecting Value Economics
(22:16) How is Value Impacted in the System of Work
(31:08) Shift of Role Requirements in Organiations
(35:13) Individual responsibility in defining value
(50:09) Pace of Technology
(56:49) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions
(01:01:05) Closing of Season 6

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/sangeet-choudary-4/

Episode recorded on May 15, 2025

To pre-order Sangeet's Book: "Reshuffle: Who wins when AI restacks the knowledge economy" check out this link https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DTKW6NQV?ref_=pe_93986420_775043100

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Music
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#124 – How AI Restacks the System of Work with Sangeet Paul Choudary | Closing of Season 6

Sean Ellis, famously known for coining the term “growth hacking”, who has led growth at multiple unicorn-scale companies like Dropbox, Eventbrite, and LogMeIn, joins us to open Season 7 of the podcast.
Reflecting on more than 15 years since the term first spread, he shares how growth hacking has evolved from a startup tactic into a discipline fit for today’s market.
Sean unpacks the shift from distribution-first strategies to product-led, product-focused ones, covers staged feature exposure, and finding north stars as teams within larger organisations.
In this episode, an opportunity to revisit the roots of growth hacking today, Sean, the best-selling author of Hacking Growth and host of the Breakout Growth podcast, explores how this is an era where product quality and market fit drive growth. Each feature, according to Sean, should be seen as a mini-product, refined until it becomes indispensable for users.. 
Tune in to learn how to build & scale in the world transformed by AI, as this one is not an episode to miss.

Key Highlights
👉 Experimentation helps distinguish between activities that are merely correlated with success and those that directly drive it.
👉 Product-market fit remains the most important driver of traction; without it, distribution alone won’t sustain growth.
👉 Growth is not about doing everything; it’s about doing the right things and measuring their impact.
👉 Startups can compete with incumbents if they solve unmet needs, even if their distribution is initially limited.
👉 When product-market fit is strong and distribution is optimised, growth can become exponential.
👉 Treat new features like standalone products - test, validate, and refine before broad promotion.
👉 Feature adoption reveals deeper insights: low use can indicate complexity, unclear value, or a misalignment with user needs.
👉 A/B testing should be focused on optimising feature presentation and accessibility, not compensating for poor product fit.
👉 Viewing your product as a platform lets each feature enhance the core experience, increasing retention and revenue.
 
Topics /chapters

(00:00) Growth Systems: reducing Friction to find Product Market Fit - Intro
(01:15) Introducing Sean Ellis
(08:21) Do small or big companies capture the market quicker?
(14:37) Reshaping Growth Strategies for B2C to B2B
(19:49) Marketing to Product: The Evolving Focus of Growth
(27:14) Creating a continuous feedback loop
(29:49) Growth in Larger Corporations through Organisational Design
(35:31) Top-Down vs. Collaborative: Driving Coherence in Growth Systems
(38:35) Product Market Fit as Paramount
(43:40) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/ellis-sean/

Episode recorded on Sep 18, 2025

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Music
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#125 - Growth Systems: reducing Friction to find Product Market Fit - with Sean Ellis

A thought leader and pioneer in platforms and ecosystems, partner at Speed Invest and an instructor at Reforge, Sameer Singh joins us on this episode to reintroduce the world of platforms, challenge the idea of AI as a platform shift, and talk about what makes products truly memorable in a market over-proliferated with choices. 
He helps us “Separate signals from the noise,” and shares his practical insights into what makes today’s startups investable: from founders with missionary zeal to data-informed decision-making, and so much more. 
For anyone curious about the intersection of AI-enabled consumer experiences and the evolving world of platforms, this episode is a must-listen.

Sameer brings deep expertise in platforms with a sharp focus on scalable distribution models, retention, and core problem-solving.
In this episode, he discusses his recent investments, framing generative AI as a powerful layer within the technology stack - that can unlock new forms of multiplayer interactions and creative experiences.
As always, he shares practical insights for entrepreneurs navigating the evolving landscape of marketplaces, social products, and what the future looks like for AI-enabled consumer experiences.

Key Highlights
👉 True network effects are mathematically grounded and don’t change across technological eras.
👉Generative AI: is it a technology stack or a platform shift?
👉 Single-user AI interactions do not inherently generate network effects. True network effects arise from unique, structured multiplayer interactions.
👉 In consumer tech, founder background is less predictive of success; what matters more is the founder’s obsession with the problem and willingness to learn, and understand user behaviour.
👉For meaningful innovation, AI should enable new experiences or multiplayer interactions under the surface, rather than being exposed as a chat interface or standalone product. Direct, one-click AI interactions often reduce value and break potential network effects.
👉 A true platform combines a usable product, developer tools, a way to match users with applications, and an economic incentive for developers.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Network Effects, Generative AI, and Platform Shifts 
(01:22) Introducing Sameer Singh
(03:07) Sameer’s Journey in Perspective
(07:16) What is changing in consumer companies?
(09:40) How do incumbent companies build for younger buyers?
(11:04) AI and Platform Shifts
(18:01) Building Solutions on GenerativeAI platforms
(24:26) AEO and LLMs as a Distribution Channel
(26:52) Does more content mean more action
(29:41) Scepticism on AI Frenzy
(37:59) Common threads among investable platform companies
(44:09) Where does value lie in a Consumer Market
(47:37) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/singh-sameer

Episode recorded on Sep 17, 2025

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Music
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#126 - Network Effects, Generative AI, and Platform Shifts with Sameer Singh

Lee Bryant, founder and director of Shiftbase, and a leading thinker at the intersection of organisational design, digital transformation, and value creation, joins us on this episode. 
Lee discusses on how capability mapping, automation, and systems thinking can free human potential, while translating large organisational purpose into tangible outcomes.
He explores how agentic AI and Platformization can enable humans in today’s organisational contexts, and shares his thoughts on why the most powerful innovations have always been combinatorial. 
For anyone curious about how technical, social, and strategic elements come together to create value in ways that are both human and technological, tune in.

Lee delves into the idea of “world-building” within organisations, showing how leaders can design not just processes, but larger value systems, setting constraints, and unleashing experiences that create lasting impact.
He also touches on the roles of leadership - in tying technology with purpose, cultivating distributed design, and creating environments where talent is empowered to innovate.
This episode offers practical guidance on building organisations that are resilient and competitive for the 21st century.


Key Highlights
👉 Organisations are evolving beyond rigid hierarchies as transaction costs fall and capabilities expand.
👉 Building a resilient organisation requires focusing on platforms that enable value creation, not just managing people.
👉 The “platform philosophy” allows organisations to extend beyond formal boundaries, inviting external talent and partners to participate.
👉 World-building in organisational design creates a compelling culture and environment that attracts talent, fosters engagement, and drives innovation.
👉 Automation, orchestration, and composability can empower employees to focus on high-value work rather than repetitive tasks.
👉 Leaders need to act as architects of the workplace and navigators of uncertainty, rather than bureaucratic monitors.
 👉 Mapping organisational capabilities and continuously developing them is essential for strategic advantage, especially in knowledge-based and customer-facing work.
 👉 Agentic AI and other emerging technologies can become subsidised enablers, helping organisations build “machines that create machines.”
 👉 Employees can act as distributed designers: automating repetitive work and contributing to the evolution of the organisational platform.


Topics /chapters
(00:00) Organising as World-Building: How AI & Platforms unlock Human Flourishing - Intro
(01:37) Introducing Lee Bryant
(03:10) Thinking about Organisational Design from the edge
(13:48) The Agent and Human Interaction
(20:17) Composing Capabilities Across Boundaries
(29:42) Balancing Humanity and Automation: Rethinking AI in organisations
(36:04) Rethinking the idea of an organisation as transaction costs reduce
(42:17) Building platforms that enable Value: Rethinking an organisation’s Core
(51:24) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/bryant-lee

Episode recorded on Oct 2, 2025

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Music
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#127 - Organising as World-Building: How AI & Platforms unlock Human Flourishing with Lee Bryant

Spencer Graham and Nicholas Naraghi, co-founders of Hats Protocol, pioneering the design and experimentation of decentralised, programmable organisations, join us in this episode to explore how these new forms of collaboration can enable new ways to organise, govern, and create value collectively. 
They discuss the future of organisational design, including how AI agents can take on roles, how frameworks and reusable templates accelerate experimentation, and why adopting different role-based “Hats” can help individuals contribute meaningfully in new, decentralised ways.
They also speak on how decentralisation can lower risk, increase system “hardness,” and improve predictability, while reflecting on what it means to distribute responsibility in a world where the boundaries of firms are increasingly fluid. 
Tune in to discover a more participatory way of organising that helps solve the principal-agent problem.

Together, Spencer and Nicholas have been pioneering new ways of structuring DAOs and digital-native organisations, making roles programmable, modular, and resilient for several years now. 
In their work, they bring deep experience in building DAOs, governance frameworks, and infrastructure that allow organisations to operate with greater transparency, adaptability, and distributed decision-making.
As we explore role-based structures to enable meaningful participation, we learn what it means to build adaptive systems capable of tackling complex challenges in a decentralised world.

Key Highlights
👉 Decentralised organisations reduce the cost of organising by embedding rules, roles, and incentives directly into software, minimising the need for traditional bureaucratic structures.
👉 AI agents can take on organisational roles, augmenting human capabilities and enabling more modular, scalable coordination.
👉 Lowering coordination costs increases the responsibility for individuals to participate meaningfully in organisational life.
👉 Roles within organisations can be made programmable and modular, allowing for flexible experimentation and adaptation.
👉 Reusable frameworks and templates accelerate organisational experimentation, letting groups test new coordination methods quickly.
👉 Individuals may act like “micro-organisations” with AI agents representing them, but collaboration will always remain necessary for complex problem-solving.
👉 Tokenisation and algorithmic governance allow individuals to earn ownership and rewards proportional to the value they create in an organisation.
👉 Participating in decentralised organisations requires embracing uncertainty, both in outcomes and in coordination dynamics.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) The Benefits of Programmable Organizations 
(01:39) IntroducingSpencer Graham and Nicholas Naraghi (Hats Protocol)
(03:35) From DAOs to Roles: The Birth of the HATS Protocol
(10:11) The Principal-Agent Problem
(15:00) Getting Buy-In on Protocols
(22:03) Separating Tech from the Principal-Agent Problem
(30:31) When Organizing Becomes Cheap: What New Organizations Will Emerge?
(40:43) Uncertainty with Autonomy
(46:05) Will “Organising” become a necessary skill?
(49:05)  Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/protocol-Hats

Episode recorded on Oct 01, 2025

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Music
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#128 - The Benefits of Programmable Organizations | Spencer Graham Nicholas Naraghi | Hats Protocol

Lisa Gill - a coach, facilitator, and host of the acclaimed Leadermorphosis podcast - joins us to explore the evolving world of self-managing organisations. 
Drawing on over a decade of experience and examples from companies like Buurtzorg and her own work at TUFF Leadership, Lisa speaks about what makes radically decentralised organisations work: dynamic hierarchies, enabling structures, and accountability without coercion. 
Drawing on lessons from allied fields such as social justice and disability justice, she emphasises that accountability is a relational practice rather than a top-down mechanism, and that true accountability requires choice, trust, and transparent communication. 
This episode is packed with essential insights and practical nuggets that you can take back and reflect on, so don’t miss out.

In this episode, Lisa takes us deep into the realities of implementing self-management and radically decentralised organisations in practice. 
Reflecting on the self-management movement's trajectory, she discusses the concept of the "green trap" - a common organisational sticking point - and uses it to emphasise why psychological comfort without sufficient accountability is unsustainable.
She also covers several other core topics for the future of decentralised organisations - like the five organisational systems, the importance of inner shifts, what it means to create environments where people can sit in discomfort, learn, and grow without relying on coercion, and so much more.


Key Highlights
👉 Self-managing organisations thrive on dynamic hierarchies, enabling structures, and distributed decision-making rather than rigid top-down control.
👉 Accountability works best as a relational practice grounded in choice, trust, and transparent communication, not coercion.
👉 True accountability requires freedom: individuals must be able to say no for their yes to be meaningful and fully owned.
👉 Balancing care and performance creates spaces for development where individuals and teams can grow sustainably.
👉 Psychological safety paired with challenge fosters both learning and innovation, avoiding the traps of comfort or anxiety extremes.
👉 Exposure to real consequences - like zero distance to customers - builds responsibility and encourages self-correcting behaviour.
👉 Both market performance and human-centred care can coexist when organisations prioritise autonomy, clarity, and alignment on values.
👉 Commitment-keeping and follow-through are foundational principles for self-managing, high-trust organisations.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Why I Don’t Call it “Self-Management” Anymore - INTRO
(01:22) Introducing Lisa Gill
(03:19) Introducing Self-Management
(11:41) Radically decentralised organisations and the future of Collaboration
(19:03) Operationalizing Decentralization in Self-Managing organisations
(24:56) Learnings on Self-Reflection from Allied Industries
(30:10) What's the Future of Self-Management?
(38:22) Enabling Ecosystemic Transformation
(44:18) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/gill-lisa

Episode recorded on Oct 17, 25

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Music
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#129 - Why I Don’t Call it “Self-Management” Anymore - with Lisa Gill

Dave Gray, acclaimed author and designer, joins us in this episode to explore how organisations can navigate profound technological and societal shifts by thinking outside their traditional theories.
With his decades of helping organisations rethink their value architectures, and his work on liminal thinking and visual frameworks, he reflects on how AI, and other fast-moving cultural changes are reshaping the very assumptions businesses operate on.
We also discuss why the biggest opportunities emerge outside a company’s existing theory, how architectural innovation differs from component optimisation, and why loosening organisational structures can create more space for play, experimentation, and discovery.
Tune in as we learn to embrace ambiguity, enable play, and help design companies that evolve with the liminal times we’re all living through.

Throughout his career, Dave has been a leading voice in helping organisations make sense of complexity. He has co-authored Gamestorming, a foundational playbook for collaborative problem-solving, and written several other seminal books that pioneered reframing organisations as adaptive, networked systems and embracing change.
In this episode, he shares his experiences from his newer ventures like the “School of the Possible”, and “Visual Frameworks”, helping us reframe our mental models and being able to “see differently,”.

Key Highlights
👉 Organisations struggle to see signals outside their existing theory, categories and mental models: ones that make them efficient but also make them blind during liminal times.
👉 Customers are constantly evolving - which means they often see shifts in value long before organisations do. Paying attention to customers is one of the most reliable ways to notice what’s changing outside your existing theory.
👉 Innovation requires the ability to visualise and hold ambiguity - letting go of familiarity to notice what doesn’t fit the current map.
👉 Architectural innovation means breaking the system into pieces and reassembling it from first principles - not just optimising components.
👉 Failure is essential - most experiments will fail, but a few (like AWS for Amazon) can redefine the complete business.
👉 Paying attention to anomalies and accidents can unlock entirely new markets.
👉 You can’t think your way into a new worldview, but you act your way into one through play, prototyping, and exploration.
👉 Looseness, redundancy, and play at the edges enable organisations to notice weak signals and adapt faster than tightly optimised systems.
 

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Thinking Beyond the Existing Theories: Evolution in Liminal Times
(01:30) Introducing Dave Gray
(03:57) At the Inflection Point: AI, Media, and the End of Business as Usual
(21:04) Building Constraints in Innovation
(24:38) The Outside-In Perspective for Organisation Building
(31:21) Building businesses with new theories of value
(42:48) What’s the future of customer co-creation?
(48:18) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions


Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/gray-dave

Episode recorded on Nov 13, 25

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

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Music
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#130 - Thinking Beyond the Existing Theories: Evolution in Liminal Times with Dave Gray

What happens when work no longer guarantees reward and time itself feels unanchored?
In this episode, Jasmine Bina - brand strategist, cultural futurist, and CEO of Concept Bureau - joins us to explore how meaning, culture, and value creation are being reshaped in societies and affecting our organisations. 
Drawing on her latest work, Age of Potency, Jasmine unpacks how cultural resets have now created “vacuums” that are being filled through new forms of identity, experimentation, spirituality, and community, among others.
We discuss what this shift means for organisations and brands, why optimisation and expertise are giving way to experimentation, and how brands can play a role in helping people form new meaning systems.
This episode offers a powerful lens for understanding cultural change and why the next era of value creation will belong to those willing to engage with uncertainty.

Jasmine takes us inside her work of tracking emerging signals at the edges of society, sharing how “Exposure Therapy” - her practice and community - deliberately immerses strategic minds in unfamiliar and often overlooked cultural spaces where new forms of meaning, and the future itself, first take shape.
Together, these reflections offer a powerful perspective on brand-building as a disciplined practice - less of a formula that needs to be applied, and more of a form of training that strengthens perception, resilience, and judgment in times of deep cultural change.

Key Highlights
👉 Culture is not collapsing but reorganising, as traditional sources of meaning around work, trust, and time lose their power and create cultural “vacuums.”
👉 When work no longer guarantees reward, people begin experimenting with new identities, values, and meaning systems beyond professional success.
👉 Trust does not disappear in times of crisis - it relocates to spaces where people willingly embrace vulnerability, often outside mainstream institutions.
👉 Brands and organisations can no longer rely on optimisation and expertise; experimentation is becoming the primary way to generate new insight and value.
👉 The future of culture is already visible in people’s private lives, where latent identities and unmet desires take shape long before markets recognise them.
👉 Exposure to unfamiliar, uncomfortable, and marginal cultural spaces is essential for sensing emerging signals.
👉 Optimism is not wishful thinking but a strategic posture that enables better pattern recognition and more meaningful connections across signals.
👉 Technology does not determine the future on its own - culture bends technologies to human needs, values, and belief systems.
👉 Brands that matter in the next decade will help people navigate uncertainty by offering new narratives about what it means to live well, belong, and contribute.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) The Age of Potency: How Meaning, Work, and Trust Are Being Rewritten - Intro
(01:23) Introducing Jasmine Bina
(08:44) Organisational and Consumer Responsibilities in the Age of Potency
(12:39) Are companies prepared for the cultural shifts?
(16:10) Are organisations looking into brand textures?
(19:41) What’s the culture one can hold onto?
(22:36) The Culture of Limits
(30:30) What should we be thinking about as brands?
(34:21) How do you avoid self-fulfilling prophecies?
(43:15) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/bina-jasmine

Episode recorded on Nov 13, 25

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

Get in touch with Boundaryless:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/boundaryless_
Website: https://boundaryless.io/contacts
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundaryless-pdt-3eo

Music
Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

#131 - The Age of Potency: How Meaning, Work, and Trust Are Being Rewritten - with Jasmine Bina

In this with Michel Bauwens, we explore both the Epistemological and Political/Regulatory layers of the transition from the “old” to the “new” ways of organising society. We dig into concepts like “trans-national institutions” and explore the changes we could expect in both regional and international governance of the economy and society. 

Michel Bauwens is founder and director of the P2P Foundation, research director of CommonsTransition.org (a platform for policy development aimed toward a society of the Commons) and a founding member of the Commons Strategies Group. 

Michel is a real lighthouse when it comes to collaborative, commons-based production models and works tirelessly since more than a decade in collaboration with a global group of researchers in the exploration of peer production, governance, and property.

Here are some important links from the conversation:

> Michel Bauwens, Corona and the Commons http://liminal.news.greenhostpreview.nl/2020/03/23/corona-and-the-commons/

> Michel Bauwens and Jose Ramos, “The pulsation of the commons: The temporal context for the cosmo-local transition” (Draft), https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sHhuecKxfB8HRH8o9aOfdlKNqaPQ8lc91502FXXv8e4/edit#heading=h.99i7fcsrn7tf 

> Bologna regulation for the care and regeneration of the urban commons, https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Bologna_Regulation_for_the_Care_and_Regeneration_of_Urban_Commons

> P2P Accounting for Planetary Survival - Commons Transition, https://commonstransition.org/p2p-accounting-for-planetary-survival/

> REPORTING 3.0, https://reporting3.org/

> Robert I. Moore (2000), The First European Revolution: 970-1215, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/712195.The_First_European_Revolution

> Bernard A. Lietaer, The Mystery of Money, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8198838-the-mystery-of-money

> Material flow accounting, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_flow_accounting

> Resources, events, agents (accounting model), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resources,_events,_agents_(accounting_model)

> David Ronfeldt, Tribes, Institutions, Markets and Networks, https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2005/P7967.pdf

> Jamie Wheal in Rebel Wisdom: War on Sensemaking 3, The Infinite Game, https://youtu.be/mQstRd7opv4

> French land trust “Terre des Liens”, https://terredeliens.org/

> Bernard Stiegler, The Neganthropocene, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40203892-the-neganthropocene

Music by liosound.
Recorded on March 31st 2020

Ep. 06 Michel Bauwens - Commons-based peer production at the edge of a chaotic transition

In our conversation with Daniel, we talk about the interplays between technology and landscape, between the virtual and the analogue world, and we explore what kind of new experiments and institutions that may emerge — and what new constituencies will likely gain a key role in organising at scale — for the re-regionalisation of the economy, which is such an important step of society’s regeneration. 
How to find and support Daniel’s work:
> Medium Blog: https://medium.com/@designforsustainability
> Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/DanielChristianWahl?fan_landing=true
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrDCWahl
> LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-christian-wahl-phd-51a54616/
> Regeneration rising Youtube conversations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zBxHnVsuus
> Facebook groups: https://www.facebook.com/regenerativecultures/, https://www.facebook.com/Ecological-Consciousness-567337650286414/ , https://www.facebook.com/groups/920150431523616/about/
Mentions and references:
> Daniel Wahl, Midwives of the Regeneration: On the fertile edges of the more beautiful world, https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/midwives-of-the-regeneration-on-the-fertile-edges-of-the-more-beautiful-world-4a28a9c6496f
> Daniel Wahl, Salutogenic Cities & Bioregional Regeneration (Part I of II), https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/salutogenic-cities-bioregional-regeneration-part-i-of-ii-2772a13bad9a
> Jung’s cognitive functions, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions
> Joanna Macy, https://www.joannamacy.net/main
> Janine Benyus: “life creates conditions conducive to life”, https://www.ted.com/talks/janine_benyus_biomimicry_s_surprising_lessons_from_nature_s_engineers/transcript?language=en
> Ecolise: https://www.ecolise.eu/
> Planetary Health Alliance, https://www.planetaryhealthalliance.org/mission
> Wendell Berry, the Unsettling of America: Culture and Agriculture, https://www.amazon.com/Unsettling-America-Culture-Agriculture/dp/0871568772
> Regenesis Group: https://regenesisgroup.com/
> Bayo Akomolafe: “times are urgent so let’s slow down” http://bayoakomolafe.net/project/the-times-are-urgent-lets-slow-down/
> Rebel Wison, Sense-Making the Corona virus outbreak, with Jamie Wheal, Diane Musho Hamilton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKDWmKL7xCk
> Yuk Hui, Cosmotechnics as Cosmopolistics, https://www.e-flux.com/journal/86/161887/cosmotechnics-as-cosmopolitics/
> Thích Nhất Hạnh (interbeing): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Nh%E1%BA%A5t_H%E1%BA%A1nh

Music by liosound.
Recorded on April 06th

Ep.09 Daniel Wahl - Organising in Nested Systems

Today we’re talking to Professor Dave Snowden, the founder and Chief Scientific Officer at Cognitive Edge and Director of the Cynefin Centre Wales. His internationally acclaimed work covers government and industry, and looks at the complex issues of strategy, organisational development and decision making. He has pioneered a science-based approach to organizations drawing on anthropology, neuroscience, and complex adaptive systems theory. He is a popular and passionate keynote speaker on a range of subjects, and is well-known for his pragmatic cynicism and iconoclastic style.

Dave holds visiting Chairs at the University of Pretoria and Hong Kong Polytechnic University, as well as a visiting fellowship at the University of Warwick. He is a senior fellow at the Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies at Nanyang University and the Civil Service College in Singapore.

In this conversation, we start by exploring a frequently used idea and quote from Dave in our emerging work on organizational design, namely that the “next generation of organizational design is about contextually unique solutions to emerge and adapt based on a coherent whole”.  

We then go more specifically into what having context-specific solutions means, and talk about the need to build systems which do not assume that you create a rational objective human being, but which work more in tune with ideas of diversity within constraints, like in nature. 
Dave talks about the importance, especially for entrepreneurial organisations, to build internal scaffolding – a sort of endoskeleton that empowers the organization to grow and adapt more easily in a complex and rapidly changing world, compared to external scaffolding which gives a more rigid structure that could be more apt in times of temporary crisis management, for instance.  

He also describes how, in the current nexus moment, experimenting novel forms of widely distributed citizen engagement in problem solving will be needed to face the challenges ahead, in terms of economic depression and massive unemployment. And we need to learn to become more “virtuous” in the process. This process will be highly collaborative and collective. According to Dave Snowden, as we move ahead in this challenging start of the century, “the capacity to manage with uncertainty is going to be something we need to build communities around”. 

Remember that you can find the show notes and transcripts from all our episodes on our Medium publication:
https://medium.com/@Boundaryless_/88ef04b7fadb?source=friends_link&sk=d3d9dd800cfb45e535e57fb4cd0cb4d2  

To find out more about Dave’s work:

> Website: https://www.cognitive-edge.com/ 

> Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/CognitiveEdge 

> Twitter: https://twitter.com/snowded 

Other references and mentions:

> Dave Snowden, Zhen Goh, Sue Borchardt, Riva Greenberg, Boudewijn Bertsch, Sonja Blignaut,  Cynefin: Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World, 2020: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cynefin-Weaving-Sense-Making-Fabric-World-ebook/dp/B08LZKDCYM

> The Cynefin framework: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework

> Embeddedness: Exploring the Roots of the Eastern idea of Organizing — with Alicia Hennig: https://stories.platformdesigntoolkit.com/embeddedness-exploring-the-roots-of-the-eastern-idea-of-organizing-with-alicia-hennig-62cbb75fce0f

> Terry Eagleton, Radical Sacrifice, 2018: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Sacrifice-Terry-Eagleton/dp/0300233353

> Terry Eagleton, Hope Without Optimism, 2019: https://www.amazon.com/Hope-Without-Optimism-Terry-Eagleton/dp/0300248679/ 

> SAFe®: https://www.scaledagileframework.com/ 

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast 

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music 

Recorded on 26 October 2020.

S2 Ep. 5 Dave Snowden – Building Scalable Organizations that can Deal with Uncertainty

Wardley Mapping is a method used to help generate a shared understanding of strategic landscapes and their evolution. From all levels – individual businesses, industries, to Nation States and even culture – it can be applied to pretty much anything. And as our adopters know well, Wardley maps are a key feature of platform strategy design. And the person who invented these maps is joining us on the podcast today: Simon Wardley. 

Simon Wardley is a former CEO and advisory board member of startups (all now acquired by US Giants) and a fellow of Open Europe. He’s a regular conference speaker and a researcher for the Leading Edge Forum. Simon uses mapping in his research at the Leading Edge Forum, covering areas from Serverless to Nation State competition whilst also advising/teaching clients on mapping, strategy, organisation and leadership.

We’re referring a lot to the “Wardley’s Doctrine” table - which is linked in the notes. Go to our medium publication to find it: https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast-S2E11-Simon-Wardley  

You’ll hear about why the Economy should start learning from China, why Tech should go serverless, why Businesses should focus on doctrine, and what Simon means when he says Society should have that “We vs Me” conversation. You’ll probably find that this episode is worth listening to a few times to get the depth and breadth of the conversation! 

If you enjoy the show, we’d kindly like to ask you to go to your favorite podcast platform and rate the show. In our ethos to keep all our knowledge open, we want to spread ideas as widely as possible and high ratings help us secure important guests. Thanks so much for your help! 

To find out more about Simon’s work:

> Website: https://learnwardleymapping.com/ 
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/swardley 
> Medium: https://medium.com/wardleymaps 
> Wardley Maps: https://list.wardleymaps.com/

Other references and mentions:

> Simon Wardley, Wardley Mapping, The Knowledge: Part One, 2020: https://www.amazon.com/Wardley-Mapping-Knowledge-Topographical-intelligence/dp/1913805182/

> Avinash Dixit and Barry Nalebuff, The Art of Strategy: A Game Theorist's Guide to Success in Business and Life, 2010: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Strategy-Theorists-Success-Business/dp/0393337170/r

> Giancarlo Gonzalez Ascar, From Intention to Action: A Plan for the Digitalization of Puerto Rico, 2020: https://www.amazon.com/Intention-Action-Digitalization-Puerto-Episode/dp/B08HGTJHJR/ 

> Jonathan Allen and Thomas Blood, Reaching Cloud Velocity: A Leader's Guide to Success in the AWS Cloud, 2020: https://www.amazon.com/Reaching-Cloud-Velocity-Leaders-Success/dp/B086PTDP51

> Margaret Mead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Mead 
> Elizabeth Shove: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Shove

> The Entrepreneurial Age: Networks and a fragmenting world — with Nicolas Colin: https://stories.platformdesigntoolkit.com/the-entrepreneurial-age-networks-and-a-fragmenting-world-with-nicolas-colin-718c066b19bc 

> Control and Coherence in the New Strategy Playbook — with Rita McGrath: https://stories.platformdesigntoolkit.com/control-and-coherence-in-the-new-strategy-playbook-with-rita-mcgrath-5346fefc7a36 

> Re-bundling the Firm around Problems to Be Solved — with Sangeet Paul Choudary: https://stories.platformdesigntoolkit.com/re-bundling-the-firm-around-jobs-to-be-done-with-sangeet-paul-choudary-af69f7d2bcbb 

> Boundaryless whitepaper (2020), New Foundations of Platform-Ecosystem Thinking — Designing Products and Organizations for a changing world, https://platformdesigntoolkit.com/DOWNLOAD-NF

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/podcast

Thanks for the ad-hoc music to Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: www.platformdesigntoolkit.com/music

Recorded on 27 January 2021.

S2 Ep. 11 Simon Wardley – Mapping, Doctrine, and Culture in the Future of Organizing

Boundaryless helps global customers with Business Strategy and Organization Design for the age of Ecosystems.
We do it by creating openly accessible frameworks and by supporting a community of organizations, institutions, and individuals through workshops, training, and consulting services. 

In this space we host all our audio recordings, including the Boundaryless Conversations podcast, a show focused on exploring the future of large scale organising by leveraging on technology, network effects and shaping narratives. We explore how platforms can help us play with a world in turmoil, change, and transformation: a world that is at the same time more interconnected and interdependent than ever but also more conflictual and rivalrous. 

We used to be online at platformdesigntoolkit.com... now find us on our new website: www.boundaryless.io!

Email: hello@boundaryless.io

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