Glenn and Eric discuss the McCluskey case out of New Mexico involving testimony on identification to the exclusion of all others, an article on how forensic labs are paid per conviction from the Huffington Post, and Glenn interviews Eric in Part 1 of "Who the Hell are Glenn and Eric?"

Episode 03 - Who the Hell are Glenn and Eric - Part 1

Eric interviews Glenn about how he got started in latent prints and his favorite time teaching. The guys then discuss regional differences in the latent print field including terms, definitions, and powder color.

Episode 04 - Who the Hell Are Glenn and Eric - Part 2

Today, Eric and Glenn FINALLY review the Stephan Cowans case, a case of an erroneous identification from Boston where a fingerprint identification was critical evidence used to convict Cowans in 1998.  This case is one of the few Innocence Project cases where there was an erroneous fingerprint identification but DNA was able to exonerate Cowans in 2004 (and the true source of the latent print was later identified).  Eric and Glenn go through the major elements of the case and the subsequent review of the Boston Police Department Latent Print Unit by an external consultant.  At the end, they discuss the critical improvements and advancements made in the wake of the error and why these cases are still important today to review and remember.

Double Loop Podcast

Episode 246 - Stephan Cowans Case

Eric and Glenn return with a super-sized episode where they trade courtroom stories.  Glenn had two cases in 2023 where the judges and decisions were rather surprising.  From being hurried, harried, and harassed, there were some oddball moments for Glenn.  Eric similarly shared a few unusual court moments for him.  We also encouraged our listeners to share their moments whether you were a witness, attorney or even as a juror, we’d like to hear your stories too!

Episode 260 - Tales from the Courtroom

Eric and Glenn respond to the recent allegations that a computer science undergraduate at Columbia University, using Artificial Intelligence, has “proven that fingerprints aren’t unique” or at least…that’s how the media is mischaracterizing a new published paper by Guo, et al.  The guys dissect the actual publication (“Unveiling intra-person fingerprint similarity via deep contrastive learning” in Science Advances, 2024 by Gabe Guo, et al.).  They state very clearly what the paper actually does show, which is a far cry from the headlines and even public dissemination originating from Columbia University and the author.  The guys talk about some of the important limitations of the study and how limited the application is to real forensic investigations.  They then explore some of the media and social media outlets that have clearly misunderstood this paper and seem to have little understanding of forensic science.  Finally, Eric and Glenn look at some quotes and comments from knowledgeable sources who also have recognized the flaws in the paper, the authors’ exaggerations, and lack of understanding of the value of their findings.

Gabe Guo et al. ,Unveiling intra-person fingerprint similarity via deep contrastive learning.Sci. Adv.10, eadi0329(2024). DOI:10.1126/sciadv.adi0329

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adi0329

https://www.engineering.columbia.edu/news/ai-discovers-not-every-fingerprint-unique

https://for-sci-law.blogspot.com/

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/12/world/fingerprints-ai-based-study-scn/index.html

Episode 264 - Fingerprints Proven by AI to Not Be Unique!

Eric and Glenn start the episode with a Where in the Whorld that leads to a little catching up.  Glenn was in NYC recently (saw the Harry Potter show on Broadway, indulging his “magician” side) and Eric has been doing the conference circuit.  Eric is also soliciting fingerprint experts for a research project on ‘estimating image resolution’ based on ridge density.  The guys also got a listener voicemail that they discuss (and roundly disagree with).  Finally they discuss the main topic for the show, a homicide case and trial that Glenn testified in: South Dakota v. Jeremiah Peacemaker.  Glenn covers his involvement and the fingerprint evidence.  In the second half of the show, the guys welcome Anjali Ranadive, who was the DNA expert for the defense, to discuss the DNA evidence and testimony in the case.  Both Anjali and Glenn had an opportunity to witness the DNA testimony at trial and were astounded by the “scientific conclusions” drawn, and testified to, by the DNA analyst.

Contact Anjali Ranadive: scilawforensics@aol.com

Day 1 of Trial
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-one/article_74b84328-d515-11ee-a210-8b7ef07e2631.html

Day 2 of Trial
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-two/article_eb1531e4-d5e6-11ee-ac1c-f39cc7b07d9e.html

Day 3 of Trial
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-three/article_6a7c27f2-d6b5-11ee-9124-3f5cf33a83bb.html#:~:text=The%20verdict%20is%20in%2C%20Jeremiah,on%20all%20counts%20of%20murder

Day 4 of Trial
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-four---state-rests-its-case/article_46573850-d780-11ee-a368-573401987ead.html

Day 5 of Trial
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-five/article_a1c7fbf2-d85c-11ee-8ef5-ef34bb7cdee9.html

Day 6 of Trial
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-six/article_29b37812-daa5-11ee-912e-9bf06a02bb89.html

Day 7 of Trial (Final Day)
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/murder-trial-of-jeremiah-peacemaker-day-seven---the-jury-is-out/article_b078ec24-db5e-11ee-bcfb-7b2eb5a1c73b.html

Verdict Announced
https://www.mykxlg.com/news/local/the-verdict-is-in-jeremiah-peacemaker-is-found-not-guilty-on-all-counts-of-murder/article_85ff1e54-db7d-11ee-b58d-27963af509b4.html

https://www.dakotanewsnow.com/2024/03/05/jeremiah-peacemaker-found-not-guilty-death-kendra-owen/

Episode 271 - SD v Peacemaker Case and Anjali Ranadive Interview

This super-sized episode has the guys interviewing several people from a recent Expert Working Group on Human Factors in the discipline of DNA.  Glenn starts by giving Eric his “Where in the Whorld” question and they catch up on some recent travels.  Glenn also explains why this episode does NOT feature a continuation of the previous episode on the Peacemaker case, but instead pivots to a different DNA topic.  In May 2024, NIJ/NIST released a Human Factors and Forensic DNA Interpretation report.  (The) Niki Osborne, Ph.D., the project lead and contractor for NIST (Natl Institute of Standards and Technology) describes how the project came to be and how NIST selected the Expert Working Group (EWG).  Then, two members of the EWG, Jarrah Kennedy, Assistant DNA Supervisor, Kansas City Police Crime Laboratory, and Michelle Madrid, DNA Technical Leader, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, discuss the various recommendations in the report.  The group covers all sorts of fun topics within DNA discipline such bias, new software and computational approaches, activity level, implementation, enforcement, and so forth.  The episode ends with Niki and Glenn discussing other disciplines and future reports.

Links to the free report:

Expert Working Group on Human Factors in Forensic DNA Interpretation (May 2024).  Forensic DNA Interpretation and Human Factors: Improving Practice Through a Systems Approach.  National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD, NIST IR 8503. http://doi.org/10.6028/NIST.IR.8503

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2024/NIST.IR.8503.pdf


Guests:

Nikola Osborne, Ph.D., NIST Contractor, and Project Lead for the Expert Working Group.

Jarrah Kennedy, Assistant DNA Supervisor, Kansas City Police Crime Laboratory

Michelle Madrid, DNA Technical Leader, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department

Episode 272 - DNA and Human Factors Expert Working Group Report

Glenn and Eric are joined by Angela Hilliard to discuss her experiences with a cold case from the Pacific Northwest. Genetic genealogy provided a suspect's name from a cold case double homicide, and a latent palm print was left on the victim's van. Angela walks us through her initial erroneous exclusion, the subsequent identification, court testimony, and the resulting press coverage. A must-listen episode for examiners on how to handle erroneous conclusions, even in high-profile cases. (Apologies for the audio in this episode. We did not realize until later that some of audio was poorer quality than normal.)

Episode 273 - Angela Hilliard Interview - Erroneous Exclusions

The guys start out with a quick explanation of why Glenn’s sound is so bad (he’s in Switzerland recording).  They also start the new “season”, post-IAI with a new game: "Truth, Lie, or Mandela Effect?"  Eric talks about his fall conference junket and then the guys finally catch up on the IAI.  They discuss their favorite lectures, workshops, and activities at the 2024 IAI Conference in Reno, NV.  They summarize some of their standout lectures that they attended.  Glenn then discusses how the Double Loop Podcast vendor booth went with Rebecca Coutant running it during the conference.  Rebecca also was “Our Girl Friday”, doing her impromptu interviews with conference attendees.

Episode 275 - 2024 IAI Conference: The Reno Recap

In this episode the guys discuss historical figures in the field of fingerprints.  At the top of the episode Eric gives Glenn an Australian themed “A Truth, a Lie, and a Mandela Effect”.  Glenn tells a couple of stories from his trip to London, which also inspired the topic for the episode.  Because of Glenn’s time in Switzerland this fall reading old texts, he learned a lot about the early days of fingerprints.  The guys discuss contributions, stories and cases from Juan Vucetich, Sir Francis Galton, Sir Henry Faulds, Sir Edward Henry, Alphonse Bertillon, Dr. Edmond Locard, and more!

Episode 276 - History Episode - Stories of the Forefathers

Glenn and Eric interview Sarah Chu, director of policy and reform with the Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice's (PCLJ) forensic science policy initiatives. Sarah breaks down her doctoral thesis on quality management and oversight in forensic science laboratories.

Episode 277 - Sarah Chu Interview

In this first recorded episode of 2025, Eric and Glenn start with Eric being pedantic in his “A Truth, A Lie, and a Mandela Effect”.  The guys catch up on New Year stuff and then launch into a review of a research paper from New South Wales, Australia, titled “How often do fingerprint examiners disagree in routine casework?” by O’Connor and Chapman (2024) from Forensic Science International.  Eric first discusses some of the important differences in casework workflow and conclusions between Aussie examiners and U.S. examiners.  Then they discuss the results of the paper and the significance of the findings.  At the end, they discuss solutions and ideas for resolving conflict and ultimately find that conflicting results and examiner disagreements are a normal, expected, natural part of the examination process.

Find the paper at:
 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2024.112139

Episode 278 - Aussie Paper on Examiner Disagreements

In this episode Glenn and Eric catch up after some hectic travel from recent weather issues.  They do some news updates and also Eric had advice for new Patreon subscribers.  Then they play an Oscar-themed round of “A Truth, a Lie, and a Mandela Effect” because it is the weekend of the 2025 Oscars.  Then the guys tackle a topic which has come up many times in the past, but they’ve never actually dived into before: Simultaneous Impressions.  They talk about different scenarios that can occur such as: some impressions stand alone, none stand alone, aggregation of features, and physical gaps or voids in an impression.  They review the famous Mass v. Patterson case from 2005 that started the initial controversy in the field.  They also have a chance to discuss John Black’s JFI research article from 2006 and other source material on the subject.

Reference:
Black, J.P. Pilot Study: The Application of ACE-V to Simultaneous (Cluster) Impressions.  Journal of Forensic Identification, 56(6) Dated: November/December 2006 Pages: 933-971.



Episode 279 - Simultaneous Impressions

Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg pay tribute to our mentor and friend. Pat Wertheim recently passed and will be greatly missed. Please join us as we remember his legacy and tell a few stories.

Episode 280 - Pat Wertheim Tribute

Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg pay tribute to our colleague and friend. Kasey Wertheim passed away on March 7, 2025 and will be greatly missed. Please join us as we remember his legacy and contributions to the field of fingerprints and tell a few personal stories.

Episode 281 Kasey Wertheim Tribute

In this episode, Glenn and Eric start with a quick game of “A Truth, A Lie, and a Mandella Effect”.  Then they pose a question from a listener regarding interest in  a forum where listeners can go and discuss the episodes of the show, ask questions, and chat “amongst themselves”.  Finally they get to the long awaited Noblis/FBI study “Black Box 2” latent fingerprint error rate study.  This is a re-do of the 2011 black box study for latent fingerprint performance.  This study “Accuracy and reproducibility of latent print decisions on comparisons from searches of an automated fingerprint identification system” by Hicklin, Richetelli, Taylor and Buscaglia (For Sci Intl, 370 (2025), 112457), reported the performance of 156 U.S. latent print examiner participants each reviewing about 100 latent prints/comparisons resulting in over 14,000 trials.  The study reports numerous statistics of performance such as sensitivity (63%), specificity (70%), false positive error rate (0.2%), and false negative error rate (4.2%).  The guys also discuss some important study design differences, plus there are a lot of data in the appendices.  Finally they talk about the number of false positives made in the study (n=23) and the fact that 13 of those 23 were made by one participant and how that impacted the results.

Article is available for free at:
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2025.112457



Episode 282 - Noblis-FBI Black Box 2 Fingerprint Study

Glenn Langenburg and Eric Ray review two articles from Cell that focus on the genetic basis for ridge development and pattern formation. 'The developmental basis of fingerprint pattern formation and variation' by Glover, et al., and 'Limb development genes underlie variation in human fingerprint patterns' by Li, et al. Our understanding of these complex processes continues to grow, and these papers further support our field and our conclusions.

Episode 283 - DNA & Patterns

In this episode, Eric stumps Glenn with a geography based Mandela Effect question.  Then the guys welcome their guest commentator, Brendan Max, Public Defender and Chief of the Forensic Science Division in Chicago, Illinois.  Eric, Glenn, and Brendan take a second look at the 2025 FBI/Noblis follow-up black box study for latent fingerprints.  The guys had previously done a cursory review of the paper in Episode 282, and now wanted to dig in a bit into the appendices and take another look at some trends.  Brendan offers his insights and shows that he’s pretty proficient with a spreadsheet too!  The guys go back and forth discussing the strengths and limitations of the study and where the methodology and practice has likely improved since the original Black Box study (conducted in 2009).

Article is available for free at:
doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2025.112457



Episode 284 - Black Box '22 - Part 2 (with Brendan Max)

In this episode, the guys start with a product-based Mandela effect question.  Then they welcome back long-time friend of the show and webmaster, Michael Whyte from the New South Wales police force in Australia.  Michael has a question for Glenn and Eric, regarding latent-to-latent comparisons, using latent prints as 'proxy exemplars' when the exemplars are worse than the latent prints or incomplete, and various off-shoots of these questions.  The guys discuss the theoretical basis and some of the legal issues that arise in both the U.S. and Australia.

Episode 285 - Michael Whyte Interview - Latent to Latent Comparisons

In this episode Eric poses to Glenn a Mandela effect question concerning household cleaning products.  After that, the guys celebrate the 4th of July holiday by welcoming their guests from Ireland.  Four fingerprint examiners from Forensic Science Ireland (FSI), the national forensic lab in Ireland, join the podcast.  The guests are Dr. Aoife Power, Dr. Craig Mullen, Mr. Columb Doherty, and Dr. Kim Connick.  Glenn and the guests talk about their time at the recent European Academy of Forensic Science (EAFS) conference in Dublin in May 2025.  The examiners from FSI discuss their research, posters, and presentations from EAFS.  Eric is also curious about their new AFIS system and has lots of questions about their processes.  The guests discuss forensic fingerprint practices in Ireland and especially working in their new national laboratory.

Forensic Science Ireland:  https://forensicscience.ie/
Dr. Kim Connick:  kconnick@fsi.gov.ie

Episode 286 - Forensic Science Ireland Interview

Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg talk about their week in Orlando at the 2025 IAI Educational Conference. Hear about Quality Metrics, limited examinations, and linking cases together, and hear from some of the conference attendees.

Episode 286 - IAI 2025 Review

Eric and Glenn complete their series on the Madrid Bombing Fingerprint Error from the FBI. Even more than 10 years after the error was revealed, there are still very interesting things to learn about this error that led to so many changes and improvements in the latent fingerprint comparison field.

Episode 113 - Madrid Error - Part 3

Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg focus their forensic science backgrounds on the infamous Kathleen Peterson murder as it was portrayed in The Staircase. The guys review their initial impressions of the case and the documentary and then tell the basic outlines of the story where Michael Peterson is suspected, arrested, charged, and convicted of the murder of his wife. There are so many twists and turns to this story that we had to get them all out of the way in this episode before focusing on the forensics in upcoming episodes.

Episode 175 - The Staircase - Part 1

Glenn Langenburg and Eric Ray are graciously joined by Bart Epstein in an interview about bloodstain and other forensic evidence from the trial of Michael Peterson in the death of Kathleen Peterson. Bart Epstein explains his involvement in the case, his opinions on the blood evidence, and where he agreed and disagreed with Duane Deaver and Dr. Henry Lee. This episode is also sponsored by IDEMIA and their new product, Case AFIS.

Episode 177 - The Staircase - Bart Epstein Interview

Glenn Langenburg and Eric Ray try to wrap up any final discussion points from The Staircase docu-series. After Michael Peterson's conviction was overturned and a new trial was ordered, new attorneys come in, but an Alford plea is reached and Michael Peterson is released. Should a retrial have gone forward? What decisions did the original judge regret? What mistakes did the prosecution make? What is a blowpoke? And could an owl have been the murderer and/or the murder weapon? (This episode is sponsored by IDEMIA.)

Episode 178 - The Staircase - Part 4

Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg move into a discussion of a new case with the help of special guest Becki Daher. Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, terrorized California in the mid-1980's before he has caught with the help of fingerprints and new AFIS technology. Becki Daher was working for the Orange County Sheriff's Office at the time and lifted the fingerprint from the car window that eventually led to his arrest. Join us in a discussion of Ramirez's crimes, the terror felt by the residents of California, and the high-tech and low-tech techniques that led to his arrest and conviction. (This episode is sponsored by IDEMIA.)

Episode 187 - Richard Ramirez

Eric Ray and Glenn Langenburg review a new paper that's been long in the making. "The permanence of friction ridge skin and persistence of friction ridge skin and impressions: A comprehensive review and new results" by Monson, et al. was recently published in Forensic Science International. The paper details the persistence and permanence of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level detail over multiple years. There are important takeaways from the paper although it isn't quite the level of the FBI/Noblis papers. So let's see what the guys think.

Episode 203 - FBI Persistency Paper

In this multi-part series on the Indiana v. David Camm case, Eric and Glenn review the evidence over multiple episodes.  In this first episode they review the evidence of the Prosecution and the first trial.  There is discussion regarding latent print evidence, DNA evidence, crime scene reconstruction, medical examiner findings, and blood stain pattern evidence.  The blood stain evidence is fairly critical in placing David Camm at the scene of a triple homicide (his wife and two young children).

Episode 218 - David Camm Case - Part 1

Glenn Langenburg and Eric Ray were recently asked which latent print books they recommend the most. This episode they talk through the absolute creme de la creme of fingerprint tomes. New books, old books, green books, blue books. Whether you're developing or comparing ridges, we've got a list of what you need to read. Also make sure to join us Wed nights at 8pm EDT for Virtual Happy Hour at https://discord.gg/b39pp6j

Episode 226 - Best Latent Print Books

In this episode, Eric and Glenn are joined by Dr. Heidi Eldridge and Prof, Christophe Champod, the authors of "Testing the accuracy and reliability of palmar friction ridge comparisons - A black box study".  The guests describe the design, the aims, and the results of the study.  We get into discussions about the meaning and usefulness of error rate statistics and confidence intervals from performance studies such as this.

Link to the Article (open source):
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110457

Link to study results in shinyapp:
https://cchampod.shinyapps.io/Results_BBStudy/

Link to confidence interval tools in shinyapp:
https://cchampod.shinyapps.io/app_CI/

Link to error rate primer prepared by Champod, Eldridge, Lambert:
zenodo.org/record/3734560#.YB8Ki5NKhbt

Episode 234 - Palm Print Black Box Study

Whether you're a practicing Latent Print Examiner or you're interested in forensics and true crime, the Double Loop Podcast is a weekly show featuring Glenn Langenburg and Eric Ray discussing latent print topics, current events in forensic science, the newest research articles, interesting guests, and analysis of notable cases from a forensic scientist perspective.

Double Loop Podcast

Pinned to spotlight

Popular tracks