Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order. In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world, talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers. He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.

The Clash of Orders

Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. 
But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order.  

In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers.  
He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.
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In this first episode, Leonard is joined by Rana Mitter, vice-president of the British Academy and professor of the history and politics of modern China at the University of Oxford, to talk about the Chinese understanding of order. How are economic inequalities and covid-19 challenging Chinese stability? What is the role of multilateralism in the international system? And finally, how do narratives of the past shape understandings of ‘order’ today?

Bookshelf
•“China’s Good War: How World War II Is Shaping a New Nationalism” by Rana Mitter
• “Is the Growing Pessimism About China Warranted?” (2016) ChinaFile Conversation
• “In the Name of the People” (2017) TV series

The Clash of Orders with Rana Mitter on China

Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order. In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world, talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers. He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.
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In this third episode, Leonard is joined by Pratap Bhanu Mehta – Laurance S Rockefeller visiting professor at Princeton University and former president of the Centre for Policy Research, a New Delhi-based think tank – to discuss the Indian perspective on order. What is the link between civilisational power and Hindu nationalism? Why is the concept of development so important for a just international order? And finally, how does the deep memory of independence and partition shape contemporary Indian politics? 

Bookshelf
• “The Burden of Democracy” by Pratap Bhanu Mehta
• “Public Institutions in India: Performance and Design” by Devesh Kapur & Pratap Bhanu Mehta
• “Non-Alignment 2.0: A Foreign and Strategic Policy for India in the 21st Century” by Sunil Khilnani et al. 
• PM Modi's speech at foundation stone laying ceremony of development projects in Ayodhya
• “The Mirror & The Light” by Hilary Mantel

The Clash of Orders with Pratap Bhanu Mehta on India

Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order. In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world, talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers. He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.
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In this second instalment, Leonard is joined by Aslı Aydıntaşbaş, associate senior policy fellow and in-house Turkey expert at ECFR, to talk about the country’s understanding of order. Does Russia’s control and presence in Turkey's backyard pose a strategic problem? How can the Pax Ottomana push back against a Western-dominated world order? And finally, what role do narratives about the Battle of Independence and the Conquest of Istanbul play in repositioning Turkey’s greatness?

Bookshelf:
• “The Balance Game” by Selim Deringil
• “The Dangerous Decade: A Foreign Policy for a World in Crisis” by Richard Haas
• “The Ministry for the Future” by Kim Stanley Robinson

The Clash 0f Orders with Aslı Aydıntaşbaş on Turkey

Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order. In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world, talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers. He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.
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In this fourth instalment, Leonard is joined by Fyodor Lukyanov – chair of the Council on Foreign and Defense Policy and editor-in-chief of the Russia in Global Affairs journal – to learn more about the Russian perspective on global order. Why is the Kremlin so keen on regional integration? How can power guarantee freedom and achieve justice in a rules-based order? And finally, what role do the Soviet Union and notions of imperial greatness play in Vladimir Putin’s ideal of Russia?

Bookshelf:
• Russia in Global Affairs journal, Issue 3 2022 July/September and Issue 4 2022 October/November
• “Europe, Russia and the Liberal World Order: International Relations after the Cold War” by Timofei Bordachev
• Complete works of Nikolai Gogol

The Clash of Orders with Fyodor Lukyanov on Russia

Many Europeans see the war in Ukraine as an attack on the ‘rules-based order’. But to many people in other parts of the world, there is no consensus on a set of rules to govern global affairs – and no sense of order. In this mini-series, Mark Leonard will go on an intellectual tour of the world, talking to key thinkers about how order is being defined by different powers. He explores how the clash between these different notions plays into the big shocks facing the world – from climate change and future pandemics to geopolitical struggles and technological disasters – and what this means for national and global politics.
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In this fifth episode, Leonard is joined by Vali Nasr – Majid Khadduri professor of International Affairs and Middle East Studies at the Johns Hopkins -SAIS, and a non-resident senior fellow at Atlantic Council’s South Asia Center – to learn more about the Iranian perspective on global order. What role does anti-Americanism play in advancing Iran’s interest in the Middle East? How are notions of power, freedom, and justice between Iranian leaders and the population different? And finally, to what extent do the Iran-Iraq War and Western sanctions shape understandings about “order” today in Iran?

Bookshelf:
•“The Dispensable Nation: American Foreign Policy in Retreat” by Vali Nasr
• “Forces of Fortune: The Rise of a New Muslim Middle Class and How it Will Change Our World” by Vali Nasr
• “The Shia Revival: How Conflicts within Islam will Shape the Future” by Vali Nasr
• “Persians: The Age of the Great Kings” by Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones

The Clash of Orders with Vali Nasr on Iran

Weekly podcast on the events, policies and ideas that will shape the world.

World in 30 minutes is curated by Mark Leonard, Director of the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR), and features top-level speakers from across the EU and beyond to debate and discuss Europe’s role in the world. It was awarded “Best podcasts on EU politics” by PolicyLab in 2019.

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The Clash of Orders with Rana Mitter on China

Mark Leonard's World in 30 Minutes