Black students who are taught by teachers who attended an Historically Black College or University or HBCU fare better than their peers. That’s what Lavar Edmonds found as he dug into a trove of data from North Carolina schools. More intriguing still: while students with Black teachers show the biggest gains, the effect also held with white teachers who graduated from HBCUs. Edmonds, the runner up in the Have You Heard Graduate Student Research Contest, explains what he thinks is the “secret sauce” at HBCUs, and why his findings challenge some of the central assumptions of so-called “role-model effects” in education.

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#119 The Impact of HBCU-Trained Teachers on Black Student Achievement

For decades, the idea that education is the primary driver of economic opportunity has held sway. The education myth, as our guest Jon Shelton describes it, has attained the status of common sense, captivating politicians from left to right. But the overselling of education as the fix for economic inequality has been politically disastrous, not to mention bad for schools and teachers. Shelton argues that we desperately need a new way to talk about education, one that puts schools in a larger context of social democracy and economic security.

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#158 If We Want to Save Public Education, We’ve Got to Talk About It Differently

Decades before Moms for Liberty launched a crusade to liberate schools from “indoctrination,” the John Birch Society introduced similar rhetoric and tactics. Have You Heard is joined by historian Matthew Dallek, author of Birchers: How the John Birch Society Radicalized the American Right. The ‘Birchers,’ he argues, sought to impose their vision of morality, Christianity and patriotism on public schools. And while the group would fade into obscurity, the Birchers’ vision and tactics inform the activism of today’s school culture warriors.

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#159 The John Birch Society was the Original Moms for Liberty

Get the right credentials to get ahead in the world. For many students and their families that IS the purpose of K-12 education. Even students who don’t have their sights set on selective colleges often see learning as secondary to the work of collecting badges and tokens. How did we get here? Why do grades and test scores exert such a powerful influence over our schools? In this episode, we talk with Jack's co-author Ethan Hutt about their new book Off the Mark: How Grades, Ratings, and Rankings Undermine Learning (But Don't Have To).

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#163 How to Get Ahead in School Without Really Learning

The power of plutocrats to shape and limit public debate is on the increase. That’s bad for K-12 education and for democracy, argues Nora Reikosky, the winner of the 2023 Have You Heard Graduate Student Research Contest. As a young “Googler,” Nora witnessed first hand the power of corporate philanthropy and its slick sales pitch, an experience that shapes her research into what she calls “pipeline philanthropy.” 

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#164 Plutocratic Philanthropists are Bad for Schools–and Democracy

Public schools are in the throes of multiple slow-moving crises: a teacher exodus, spiking student absenteeism and plunging literacy rates. Yet education reforms implemented as part of the Obama-era ‘theory of change’ have received little blame. Special guest Nora De La Cour, a former teacher who writes about education for Jacobin and other publications, says it’s long past time for an acknowledgment that test-centric reforms have drained the life from public schools. Such reforms have demoralized teachers and left students feeling like school has no purpose, argues De La Cour, and made public education much harder to defend against the right-wing push for private school vouchers and classical education. 

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#171 The Damage Done

Last year Oklahoma approved the nation’s first tax-payer funded religious charter school. It won’t be the last, warns Rachel Laser of Americans United for Church and State. We’re joined by Laser and two plaintiffs in a legal effort to keep the school from opening. As our guests explain, the school is part of a larger project to roll back the clock on civil rights, disability rights and labor protections. Now for the good news: tearing down the separation between church and state turns out to be really unpopular.

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#174 Religious Charter Schools are Coming. Be Worried.

From huge voucher programs that shift funding to private schools that don’t have to accept kids with disabilities to a backlash against funding, special education and the students who rely on it are newly vulnerable. In this powerful episode we hear from parents and advocates in six states about their concerns. And we’re reminded that the nation’s commitment to educating kids with special needs has always been tenuous.

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#175 Special Education is Under Threat

Market-based education reform may be on the wane, but what’s the alternative? Our guest, Jonathan Gyurko, author of the provocative new book Publicization, argues that public education advocates need to rally around a goal of making public schools as public as possible. That means changing the way we think about funding, governance, accountability–indeed, the very purpose of school. If we want to move beyond decades of privatization, says Gyurko, we need a hopeful vision of what schools could be. 

Our new book, The Education Wars: A Citizen’s Guide and Defense Manual, is now availalbe for pre-order: https://www.educationwarsbook.com/order

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#177 The Opposite of Privatization is Publicization

Students who lived through court-ordered desegregation in the South grew up to become less conservative, more tolerant adults. That’s the finding of provocative research from education scholar Mark Chin, who compared students who attended integrated schools with their peers in the same county who didn’t. Mark says his research is a reminder to academics to think bigger than test scores when looking at the impact of education policy. But it also provides us with essential context for understanding today’s wave of school privatization in the South: an effort to produce kids who will be more conservative and less tolerant as adults.

Our new book, The Education Wars: A Citizen’s Guide and Defense Manual, will be out on July 2. You can pre-order it here: https://www.educationwarsbook.com/order

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#179 School Integration Made Kids Less Conservative

To celebrate the release of The Education Wars, we’ve gathered a cast of thousands to help bring the book to life. Our special guests help us understand what’s driving the intense push to privatize schools, what we’ll lose when public schools are gone, and how we can fight to protect and transform public education in this country. You’ll laugh, you’ll cry, you’ll be inspired, you’ll want to buy the book–and then give it away. Special guests include Erik Anderson, Noliwe Rooks, Derek Gottlieb, Jess Piper, Heather DuBois Bourenane, Letha Muhammed, Nora Flanagan and Johann Neem.

Our new book, The Education Wars: A Citizen’s Guide and Defense Manual, is now out! You can buy it wherever you buy books. 

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#180 The Education Wars

This is a special episode of Have You Heard, and not just because co-host Jack Schneider is MIA. We’re paying tribute to Jennifer’s dad, Tom Berkshire, a tireless advocate for kids and for fixing the nation’s broken foster care system. We’re headed to a magical community in western Massachusetts called Treehouse that surrounds foster kids and their adoptive families with love while providing senior citizens with affordable housing. In other words, this is a feel good episode at a time when we could all use a little uplift. Special guest: journalist and educator Nora De La Cour.

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#181 It Takes a Village (No, Really)

From the end of federal COVID relief money to declining enrollment, school districts are in a world of hurt right now. But while the causes for the rising tide of red ink are complex, the recommendations from school finance experts are always the same: cut, fire and close. Our guest, school district finance whisperer David Backer, takes serious issue with these supposed solutions and wants to arm teachers and public school advocates with the tools and knowledge necessary to fight back. 

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#182 Cut, Fire, Close

When Courtney Gore ran for school board in a deep red Texas county, she pledged to root out indoctrination. But once she got into office, Gore could find no evidence of indoctrination happening in the local schools. She has since disavowed the far-right platform she ran on and now argues that the school culture wars are being ginned up in order to build support for private school vouchers–and a growing number of local Republicans agree with her. Education journalist Karin Chenoweth interviewed Gore on her podcast, Democracy and Education, and gave us permission to share their conversation on Have You Heard. 

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#183 Change of Heart

Massachusetts voters will soon weigh in on whether to abandon the state’s de facto high school exit exam. That prospect has pitted elected officials and business leaders against teachers and their union, as well as a majority of voters, who’ve grown weary of schools’ focus on standardized testing. But the contentious debate also reflects a deep (and old) divide over the purpose of high school. We’re joined by education historian David Labaree who argues that high schools are not equipped (and never have been) to prepare students for the jobs of the future, and that policymakers and business leaders who insist on that goal have ended up dramatically narrowing the purpose of school.

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#186 What is High School For?

For decades the Republican mantra on public schools has been to make them ‘business like,’ driven by the belief that strong schools = a strong economy. No more. Today’s top priorities for the GOP are moving students into private religious schools and home schools, and infusing religion into public schools. How did such a dramatic shift occur? Political scientist Heath Brown, author of Homeschooling the Right, joins us to talk about the transformation of the Republican Party and its implications for education policy. 

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#189 What’s Driving the Republican Party’s Radical Shift on Education?

Our biggest political divide these days isn’t race or gender but education - and that division is only getting worse. We talk to the co-author of a new book that offers the single best explanation we’ve come across regarding the role that education is playing in fueling our bitter political battles. David Hopkins, author (with Matthew Grossmann) of Polarized by Degrees: How the Diploma Divide and the Culture War Transformed American Politics, helps us makes sense of a profound shift in American politics, how K-12 teachers and university faculty came to be seen as the enemy by so many on the right, and what we can do about it.

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#190 Degrees of Separation

Vouchers are not conservative. That’s what we heard again and again when we talked to Texans who consider themselves Republicans but oppose their party’s top education priority. We hear from rural Texans who are taking the attacks on their local schools very personally, and business minded Republicans who fear the consequences of privatizing education for workforce development. But the real lesson in this episode is political. The big money push to expand school vouchers, and expel voucher opponents, is spurring rising discontent within the ranks of the Republican party, including among some of Trump’s staunchest supporters.

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#191 These Conservative Texans Oppose School Vouchers

It’s common knowledge that every student has a learning style: visual, auditory or kinesthetic. But what if those classifications are not just inaccurate but dangerous? That’s the argument made by education historian Tom Fallace in his provocative new book, You Are Not a Kinesthetic Learner: The Troubled History of the Learning Style Idea. As Fallace documents, not only is the research behind learning styles flimsy, but the classifications end up lumping together whole racial and ethnic groups as kinesthetic learners.

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#192 There’s No Such Thing as a Kinesthetic Learner

Organizing in defense of public education at the local level has never been more vital. And yet in an era when even the most local elections are now nationalized, electing pro-public education candidates can be a heavy lift. In this episode, we hear from a group of parents in Souderton, Pennsylvania who have been slowly ‘moving the needle,’ making incremental gains in each election cycle. They’re hoping that 2025 will finally be the charm when it comes to convincing local voters to make the school board nonpartisan again.

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#193 All Politics is Local

Like just about everyone these days, our own Jack Schneider is troubled–make that frightened–by our political landscape. But however deep our divides may be, there’s one issue that can, if not bring us together, allow for at least a conversation. The dismantling of the public education system would be so obviously bad for all of us that maybe, just maybe, a shout from the other side of the partisan divide might actually be heard. In this Letter to a Trump Voter, Jack reminds us of all the important areas of aggreement Americans actually share when it comes to their public schools. "Maybe if we can agree to protect public education we can find other things to agree on."

Music for the episode provided by the brilliant Francisco Rafart.

Song list:
- Caminito del Turia
- Always with you
- Andes Haze
- Magic Concepts

Links to music:
Spotify https://open.spotify.com/artist/3EIxblOsWLuH54ZRWDuw1m
Website https://rafartmusic.com/albums

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#194 Letter to a Trump Voter

We’re headed to Vermont where public schools are confronting a ‘perfect storm’ of challenges. Costs are rising in this largely rural state even as the student population is declining, fueling a taxpayer revolt. Meanwhile, thanks to a recent SCOTUS ruling, a tradition of funding private schools with public funds means that Vermont must now pay for religious education. Enter the state’s Republican governor with a bold plan to do education in Vermont completely differently. Will public education in the Green Mountain State survive? And how long before schools in your state face a similar precipice?

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#195 Public Education is on the Precipice

The best schools in the country may be run by - wait for it - the Defense Department. But as education researcher Kenneth Wong tells us, the schools’ success is a fairly recent development, reflecting a years-long overhaul centered on improving teaching and learning. Alas, the ‘what works’ era that would have once sent education experts rushing to the scene in search of the secret sauce is no more. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has priortized the crusade against DEI while his boss has ordered him to draw up a plan to voucher-ize the schools.

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#196 The Best Schools You’ve Never Heard Of

The vision of the future on offer from Donald Trump looks a lot like the past, when men were men, women stayed home, and just about everyone was less educated. To get a glimpse of what that future might look like we head to Indiana, one of the great ‘human capital anti-success stories of the 21st century,’ according to our guest, economist Michael Hicks. Hicks makes the case that Indiana has pursued a series of disastrous policy choices over the past decade, including slashing spending on K-12 schools and higher education, expanding school choice (while cutting school spending), and preparing kids for the jobs of the past.

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#197 Taking America Back (to a Less Educated Past)

We’re headed to California, where high school students will soon be required to complete an ethnic studies course in order to graduate. The policy has set off the predictable culture war response, with critics charging that ethnic studies is indoctrination, activism, DEI, CRT, etc. But lost in the fog of backlash are the impressive results that ethnic studies has shown for students who struggle in school, including boosting attendance, GPA, and engagement. So what’s the problem? It turns out that ethnic studies’ inherent activism is precisely why the course is so effective, and why it’s such a target these days.

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#198 Ethnic Studies ‘Works.’ Does That Even Matter Anymore?

Legal scholar Derek Black is a vocal critic of the Trump administration’s anti-DEI crusade, arguing that the effort to impose what he calls ‘loyalty oaths’ on schools is blatantly unconstitutional. Black argues that the attacks on public education are at the center of a larger project aimed at undermining the two central pillars of democracy: free speech and due process. The author of a new book, Dangerous Learning: The South's Long War on Black Literacy, Black draws parallels between the lead-up to the Civil War and today’s paranoia-fueled efforts to limit what teachers can teach and students can learn. 

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#199 Dangerous Learning, Dangerous Times

It’s the 200th episode of Have You Heard and we’ve assembled an all-star lineup to help us make sense of what the AI ‘revolution’ in education is really about. Audrey Watters, Ben Riley and John Warner view the over-heated claims being made about AI’s potential with extreme skepticism, reminding us of the long history of the ed tech sales pitch, and the dangers of a world in which tech titans have the money, power and influence to reshape education along reactionary lines.  

#200 Don’t Buy the AI Hype

Local democracy has never been more essential, so why does it so often disappoint us? Jack convenes an all-star cast to discuss the promise vs the reality of school boards as democratic institutions. Special guests Rachel White, Derek Gottlieb, Kathleen Knight Abowitz and Johann Neem make the case that, love them or hate them, school boards remain one of the last places where Americans can come together as neighbors as part of a community. Bonus: we meet one of the longest-serving school board members in the land.

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#201 Use It Or Lose It

What does the ratification of the 14th Amendment in 1868 have to do with the wave of teacher walkouts sweeping the country today? More than you might think! Law professor Derek Black steps into the Have You Heard studio to talk about a forgotten history and why it's more relevant today than ever.

#41 Getting Fundamental: Do Americans Have a Right to Public Education?

Have You Heard talks to Audrey Watters, journalist and expert in all things #edtech, about "teaching machines," and the long (and almost completely ignored) history of efforts to automate the teaching profession.

#43 Teaching Machines: The Dream of Automating the Teaching Profession Goes Way Back

Occasionally funny and periodically informative, Have You Heard features journalist Jennifer Berkshire and scholar Jack Schneider as they explore the age-old quest to finally fix the nation's public schools, one policy issue at a time.

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