Ken and Paul discuss cultural roots and how American culture (and its inevitable intersection with race) in particular is difficult to define - and how it impacts identity in important ways.

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Ep7: Culture - how does it intersect with race and identity?

Ken and Paul continue their discussion on culture and work through the idea of cultural pride coexisting with cultural injustices. They also define racism, racist, and antiracist.

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Ep8: Cultural pride - how can it exist for White men in America?

Ken and Paul discuss the rise in Anti-Asian hate crimes and how stereotypes, discrimination, and violence against Asians have deep-roots; plus how racism against Asians is one of the many forms of discrimination that must be acknowledged and stopped.

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Ep9: Anti-Asian discrimination - how do past policies and violence connect to a rise in hate crimes?

Ken and Paul discuss ways that creating racial and gender equity benefit everyone, including White men. They also define and discuss the difference between equity and equality.

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Ep10: Equity - how does it benefit everyone, including White men?

Ken and Paul discuss how the racial and gender hierarchies can lead to anger - an emotion that often correlates with violence. They explore how White men can check internalized expectations that can be harmful in many ways.

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Ep11: Anger and violence - how are they manifested by the racial and gender hierarchies?

Ken and Paul discuss different ways that White men can create equity; in what is the first of many discussions on the topic. They explore how not everyone can - nor should - play every role in equity work, break down generational trauma, and what White men can do for equity in the workplace today.

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Reference from discussion - The Social Change Ecosystem by Deepa Iyer: https://buildingmovement.org/our-work/movement-building/social-change-ecosystem-map/

Ep12: Creating equity - what roles can White men play?

Ken and Paul break down a definition of leadership and discuss how grounding ourselves in a definition can help us understand what being a leader can look like for White men in creating equity. They also link leadership to power and explore how it's important to identify where power is coming from and how to best share it.

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Ep13: Leadership - what can it look like for White men in creating equity?

Ken and Paul discuss a message that Paul received from a White man who questions the necessity of racial equity work. They stress that in being antiracist and antisexist, we have to be open to people disagreeing with us and respond to those disagreements.

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Ep14: A White man doubts the need for equity work - how to respond?

Ken and Paul discuss a lunch that Ken had with a Black man who denies that systemic racism exists. It got Ken thinking - how do we succinctly respond to someone who denies systemic racism in something as short as a workday lunch? He takes a crack at it.

They also discuss:
  - A racist idea that they both realize is important to check as White men.
  - How monopolized power has resulted in dominant cultural norms, expectations, and rules that appear "race-neutral" on the surface, but, in fact, disproportionately disadvantage people of color. 
  - The idea of an individual's "merit" and how privilege can impede a fair shake.

From their discussion, they reference Alicia Sheares' essay, "To dismantle systemic racism, White people must be willing to give up their power." See the full essay here: shorturl.at/lsSW8

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Ep15: Succinctly explaining systemic racism - is it possible?

Ken and Paul discuss a framework that maps out the identity process to being a White antiracist, which can provide clarity to where we are in the process and where we are going. The topic was brought about by a listener who reached out because he is experiencing guilt and shame - an inevitable, and difficult, part of the process.

They discuss the stages leading up to and including guilt and shame, and why - even if it may seem contradictory on the surface - developing a positive White identity is essential to being an antiracist. 

Referenced from the discussion: Ladder of empowerment by Tema Okun https://www.fammed.wisc.edu/files/webfm-uploads/documents/diversity/LifeLongJourney.pdf

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Ep16:  Creating a positive White antiracist identity - what is the process?

Ken and Paul define white supremacy and discuss how "white supremacy culture" shows up in everyday life, including in the workplace. They share their own experiences of being susceptible to it, and Ken explains how he still wrestles with it in the professional setting.

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Ep18: White supremacy - what is it and how does it show up in the workplace?

Ken and Paul are joined by TMWM's first guest, Becky Evan. Becky is an Assistant Professor of Management at Metro State University. Her research and experience is focused on enhancing an organization's diversity and inclusion programs. She’s especially interested in breaking concrete and glass ceilings so women and people of color can flourish in leadership positions.

​This episode discusses the research report titled "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in the Workplace: Examining the Role of White Privilege in Advancing Organizational Equity​,​" in which she is one of the researchers (Evan, R.J., Sisco, S., Fashant, C.S., and Robbins, S.). The research takes a critical look at dominant culture​ -​ or whiteness​ -​ to better understand the work ahead of us on DEI teams and in organizations.​​

​They discuss themes of personal development, ways White privilege can support BIPOC colleagues in the workplace, ​helpful theories to identify our whiteness to ultimately work towards accountability, reference White men's roles specifically, and more.

​Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com. ​

Ep24: Becky Evan - examining the role of white privilege in advancing organizational equity

Ken and Paul are joined by Ellie Krug. Ellie is a writer, lawyer, and the founder of Human Inspirations Works, LLC. She is the author of the book “Getting to Ellen: A Memoir About Love, Honesty, and Gender Change” and has presented on diversity and inclusion to Fortune 100 companies, law firms, nonprofits, and colleges/universities on more than 1,000 occasions. In 2016, she was named by Advocate Magazine as one of the 25 Legal Advocates Fighting for Trans Rights. In 2019, she received the Business of Pride Career Achievement Award from the Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal and a Legacy Award from OutFront, Minnesota’s largest LGBTQ advocacy organization. 

This episode discusses Ellie's experience transitioning from male to female at the age of 52 and the work she has done for transgender inclusivity - and really, the inclusivity of all differences. Ellie provides examples of what we can do - including cisgender White men, specifically - in everyday life to support equitable workplaces and societies.

Learn more about Ellie's work: https://elliekrug.com/

Sign up for Ellie's newsletter, The Ripple: https://elliekrug.com/newslettersmedia/ 

You can tune into her weekly radio and podcast show, Ellie 2.0 Radio, on AM950 to learn about how each of us can play a role in fostering positive change in the world: https://www.am950radio.com/events/ellie-2-0/

Watch the full conversation with Ellie on TMWM's YouTube channel, where you can watch all interviews with guests: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep25: Ellie Krug - transgender lived experience and compassion for all differences

Ken and Paul are joined by the author of "A White Guy Confronting Racism: An Invitation to Reflect and Act," Jared Karol.

In addition to his book, Jared is the Head of Product Experience at Translator. For more than 20 years he has been a DEI consultant, public speaker, and facilitator—specializing in guiding White people to confront racism and be unapologetic antiracists. Jared has extensive experience in Fortune 500 companies, facilitating difficult conversations, and coaching executives to be impactful storytellers.

This episode discusses Jared's lived experience as a White man working to be antiracist, his approach to coaching White leaders at organizations, how he views the significance of White people having these conversations, and the importance of trusting in the integrity of our intentions.

Learn more about Jared's work: https://jaredkarol.com/

Jared's book: https://www.awhiteguyconfrontingracism.com/book

Watch the full conversation with Jared on TMWM's YouTube channel, where you can watch all interviews with guests: https://gate.sc/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fchannel%2FUCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA&token=a71f63-1-1653415753794

Read Ken and Paul's takeaways from the conversation with Jared: https://themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog?blog=y
 
Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep26: Jared Karol - A White guy confronting racism

In this minisode, Ken and Paul discuss the importance of tapping into emotions when doing identity work, rather than solely intellectualizing. They check in on how they are individually doing on embracing emotions, and how it critically leads to empathy and compassion.

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com and watch interviews with guests on TMWM's YouTube channel www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Ep27: Tapping into emotions - why is it important when doing identity work?

Ken and Paul are joined by Hugh Kenety. 

While Ken and Paul both had similarly homogenous White upbringings, Hugh has been culturally immersed in many different spaces involving different nationalities, races, cultures, and socioeconomics since a young age. He grew up in the melting pot of Rosemary Hills in Silver Spring, Maryland, where he was often the only White guy in the room.

Hugh’s lived experience of growing up in a non-White neighborhood resulted in him being acutely aware of his Whiteness since age six, resulting in a unique racial identity process.

This episode discusses:
- The power of proximity to recognize Whiteness
- The danger of co-opting Blackness and/or Black masculinity by White people
- The importance of developing tools to have cross-identity relationships and to reform “White culture”
- The difference between being "self-conscious" and "self-aware"
- How connecting with personal culture can lead to a positive racial identity in the United States

Watch the full conversation with Hugh on TMWM’s YouTube channel, where you can watch all interviews with guests: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Read Ken and Paul’s takeaways from the conversation with Hugh: https://themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com

Ep28: Hugh Kenety - the only White guy in the room

In this minisode, Ken and Paul discuss how a caste system both intertwines with and differs from racism and how the distinction can help to understand inequities. 

They discuss:
	⁃	How racism becomes easily deniable by shape-shifting and manifesting itself in covert ways.
	⁃	How a caste system does not allow us to ignore structure; caste is structure and ranking. 
	⁃	That casteism is the investment in keeping the hierarchy as it is.
	⁃	The threat of “Oppression Olympics” and last place aversion.

Referenced in this episode: “Caste: The Origins of our Discontents” by Isabel Wilkerson https://www.isabelwilkerson.com/

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com and watch interviews with guests on TMWM's YouTube channel www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Ep29: Casteism - how does differentiating it from racism help to understand inequities?

Ken and Paul are joined by the Executive Director of Black Men Teach, Markus Flynn.

The mission of Black Men Teach is to recruit, train, place, and retain Black male teachers in elementary schools. Their goal is for each of their eight partner schools to have 20% of their teaching staff be Black men within six years, by which time they will have built a pipeline that will provide 100 Black male elementary teachers within ten years.

Markus explains why representation within elementary school teachers is so important, and the gap that persists: for example, there are roughly 63,000 teachers in Minnesota, 220 of whom are Black men, and of that probably 50 or less are elementary school teachers.

This episode discusses: 
- Why students identifying with, and seeing themselves in, teachers is so important. 
- The impacts that unconscious bias have on influencing expectations and the tremendous implications teacher expectations have on students. 
- How making school culture more equitable is critical to recruiting and retaining Black male teachers. 
- The impacts Black male teachers can have for students of all races to eliminate unconscious biases and build relationships, particularly at a young age.

Learn more about Black Men Teach: https://blackmenteachtc.org/

Watch the full conversation with Markus on TMWM's YouTube channel, where you can watch all interviews with guests: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Read Ken and Paul's takeaways from the conversation with Markus: https://themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep30: Markus Flynn - Black Men Teach

Ken and Paul are joined by multi-published author and the founder of Evolutionary Workplace, Jill Nagle.

Jill believes many more problems than we realize can be solved with real-time conversations. She works with anti-racist leaders and organizations using cognitive, somatic, and strategy-based tools to help them create better conversations, sharper perspectives, and more effective strategies to align their actions with their ideals. 

This episode discusses the power of curiosity, disarming questions, and being in-touch with one's own bodily responses and patterns to have more transformational conversations on our antiracist journey. They also explore how creating more equitable societies and workplaces helps all people (including White folks) and how everyone has the power to enact change through leadership. 

Learn more about Jill's work: https://www.evolutionaryworkplace.com/

Watch all interviews with guests on TMWM's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Read Ken and Paul's takeaways from the conversation with Jill: themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog?blog=y
 
Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep31: Jill Nagle - solving problems with real-time conversations

Ken and Paul are joined by Donte Curtis. 

Donte is the owner of Catch Your Dream Consulting where he inspires and trains individuals and teams nationwide on leadership, racial equity, antiracism, and making practical change. Donte brings his 14 years of facilitation and speaking experience with an expectation of getting you energized, you taking practical action, and finding hope for a better tomorrow.

This episode discusses:
- How exploring culture initially can break down defensiveness and open people up.
- How everyone has the agency to activate themselves wherever they are, and it’s all needed. 
- The critical importance of persuasion to make positive change. 
- The value of consistency and persistence over time to make practical change.
- The importance of finding hope to focus on what’s possible instead of what’s wrong. 

Learn more about Donte’s work: www.catchyourdreamconsulting.com

See a clip of the conversation with Donte on our YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/m27QeN8EzPI

Read Ken and Paul's takeaways from the conversation with Donte: themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog?blog=y   

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep32: Donte Curtis - activate yourself through consistency, persistence, and hope

Ken and Paul are joined by Tsitsi Zawaira. 

Tsitsi is an advocate, business consultant, and aspiring writer currently working on a book about the concept of Black implosion and authors the Unbowed Spirit Newsletter on Substack. She has worked for organizations both in the United States and Zimbabwe doing work focused on the eradication of gender based violence. Tsitsi, being from Zimbabwe, brings a unique perspective on race and gender in the United States.

This episode discusses:
- The necessity of ambiguity in the process of leaving behind one identity and moving towards a new, truer one.
- Tsitsi's experience immigrating to the United States and having Blackness bestowed upon her.
- The concept of "Black implosion" and why it's important for White people to be aware of it.
- How having one's heritage and ancestry at the forefront of equity work helps connect to a collective past, present, and future.

Learn more about Tsitsi's work on her substack page: https://tinyurl.com/32fw4wma

Read Ken and Paul's takeaways from the conversation with Tsitsi: https://themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog/f/navigating-a-new-truer-identity-with-ambiguity

See a clip of the conversation with Tsitsi on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep33: Tsitsi Zawaira -  developing a truer identity for a collective past, present, and future

Ken and Paul are joined by Dawn Johnson.

Dawn is a mentor, motivator, and life coach. Through her organization, The Dawn Johnson Experience, Dawn provides both life coaching and diversity training. Her work focuses on individual wellness and disrupting long-standing institutional barriers resulting from microaggressions, privilege, and racial inequities.

This episode discusses:
- Dawn's experiences and insights from her over 20 years of working in Corporate America as a Black woman.
- The daily drain of code-switching.
- The importance of sponsoring and championing individuals in the workplace.
- The initial hurdle for White men to show up in this work and embrace discomfort.
-  The importance of being "unapologetically White" to be antiracist.
- Finding the humanity in others by entering into, and embracing, different cultures.

Learn more about Dawn's work: www.dawnljohnson.com

Read Ken and Paul's takeaways from the conversation with Dawn: https://themodernwhiteman.com/the-blog

See a clip of the conversation with Dawn on our YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiYVNqxYKmHkxvTwquc2KA

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to our newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com

Ep34: Dawn Johnson - the need for inclusive cultures to embrace and elevate authentic selves

Ken and Paul lay out why they started this podcast, introduce themselves, and give a preview to future conversations.

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Introduction

Ken and Paul begin their identity process by discussing why race was even created in the first place and how it impacted the beginning of this country.

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Ep1: The creation of race - why did White men do it?

Ken and Paul discuss how race and slavery created such a deep divide that it led to the bloodiest war in American history, and unpack the fact that white men were making those decisions.

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Ep2: The Civil War - why were White men disputing over race and slavery?

Ken and Paul discuss the post-Civil War reconstruction period, its eventual abandonment, and how its failure led to a new era of white supremacy.

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Ep3: Reconstruction period - how did White men blow their opportunity to make things right?

Ken and Paul discuss how America's past racist policies and practices connect to today's realities, and how white men can easily avoid those realities unless they put in the effort.

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Ep4: Racial disparities today - how did White men's policies of the past create today's realities?

Ken and Paul explore the "man" part of White man, discussing why gender distinctions and roles were created in the first place and the impacts on genders today.

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Ep5: The creation of gender roles - why did men make the distinction?

Ken and Paul discuss the idea of "traditional masculinity" and how men trying to live up to those standards can be harmful for both men and those around them. They also consider how their own identity relates to (and in some cases, has struggled with) these traditional traits.

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

Ep6: Traditional masculinity - how does it impact men's identity?

Co-hosts Ken Lawrence and Paul Johnson discuss how to be a Modern White Man who is antiracist, antisexist, and understands his role in creating an equitable society.

Ken and Paul unpack their identity as White men by having honest, open - and sometimes difficult and uncomfortable - conversations about being a White man. Where White men come from, White men’s place in today’s society, and roles White men can play moving forward as allies, leaders, and individuals who care about creating an equitable society where all races and genders thrive.

Connect with The Modern White Man by subscribing to their newsletter at www.themodernwhiteman.com.

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