We welcome Jodi Vittori, Professor of the Practice and Concentration Co-Chair for Global Politics and Security at Georgetown University and military veteran to the pod to talk about the role of corruption in Afghanistan. 

Warlord Inc. Report: https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/HNT_Report.pdf 
Goldwater-Nichols Act: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldwater-Nichols_Act 

2:45: what got Jodi interested in corruption 
6:53: on what went wrong in Afghanistan even though the problem of widespread corruption has been acknowledged not just by (anti-)corruption experts 
15:05: Jodi provides a history of military doctrines and outlines what the doctrine for Afghanistan should have been
27:50: on whether and how it is possible to reform (foreign) governance
32:15: Jodi discusses what the ideal timing is to implement good government reforms 
38:53: On whether a hands-on versus hands-off approach is better able to tackle corruption post-conflict regions
47:55: a discussion about what militaries can and cannot/should not be doing
54:30: Jodi looks ahead and summarizes the key lessons drawn about the link between corruption and security from Afghanistan.

59. Jodi Vittori on corruption and the US military operation in Afghanistan

We welcome Kate Bateman, @katebatemandc),  senior expert in the Afghanistan program of the United States Institute of Peace (https://www.usip.org/regions/asia/afghanistan), formerly in the Lessons Learned Program at Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (www.sigar.mil) 

Quarterly report by SIGAR:  https://www.sigar.mil/quarterlyreports/index.aspx?SSR=6 
Corruption lessons learned report :  https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/lessonslearned/SIGAR-16-58-LL.pdf 
Building the ANDSF lessons learned report:  https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/lessonslearned/SIGAR-17-62-LL.pdf 
most recent Lesson Learned report “What We Need to Learn,” distilling the insights of previous reports:  https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/lessonslearned/SIGAR-21-46-LL.pdf 

Books by Sarah Chayes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Chayes#Books_and_other_works 
Previous Kickback Episode on the role of Corruption in Afghanistan: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/59-jodi-vittori-on-corruption-and-the-us-military-operation-in-afghanistan 

Recommended Podcast from Kate: https://www.cna.org/news/podcast Episodes 96 and 97.

60. Kate Bateman on the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction

This week we welcome Fernanda Odilla (@fe_odilla) and Anwesha Chakraborty (@anwesha8984) to talk about their research on how to use technology to assist bottom-up anti-corruption efforts. You can find more about their and Alice Mattoni’s work via https://site.unibo.it/bit-act/en/team/researchers 

What we cover in the podcast:
Alice Mattoni’s BIT-ACT project, find more about it in our previous podcast with Alice: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/56-alice-mattoni-on-the-potential-of-digital-media-for-social-movements-against-corruption
Fernanda mentions the car wash (“Lava Jato”) scandal and its backlash, find out more about it from the lead prosecutor Deltan Dallagnol (https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/2-episode-deltan-dallagnol and https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/55-michael-mohallem-on-lava-jato-and-anti-corruption-efforts-in-brazil 
7:45 Whether the hype around digital tools to fight corruption are justified 
Anwesha mentions the Ipaidabribe website, you can find it here: http://www.ipaidabribe.com/ 
Which was founded by janaagraha, center for citizenship & democracy: https://www.janaagraha.org/home/ 
To find out about one of the tool that Fernanda’s does research research on, Operation love serenade, you can check out our previous episode with the founder Irio Musskopf: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/33-irio-musskopf-on-using-artificial-intelligence-to-fight-corruption 

18:08 on the challenge to keep citizens engaged in collective action and whether the projects use a naming and shaming approach
Fernanda mentions Operation Supervised Politics (in Portuguese): https://www.ops.net.br/ 

27:25 on whether reporting platforms can backfire by indicating high descriptive norms 
35:19 on how corruption fights back against anti-corruption and whether the problem is bigger on the local or national level
43:19- 43:31: quote → not only transparency….
45:10: Anwesha and Fernanda sketch a utopian future how technology could help to reduce corruption
54:15 Picks of the podcast:
Fernanda: Documentary about art forgery, called Made you look https://www.netflix.com/de/title/81406333 
Book about Odebrecht: https://www.livrariadavila.com.br/a-organizacao--a-odebrecht-e-o-esquema-de-corrupcao-que-chocou-o-mundo-725368/p 
Anwesha: a documentary called An insignificant Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk-DlWrZsMg) that plays out like a political thriller
And Bad Boy Billionaires https://www.netflix.com/de/title/80990073

61. Fernanda Odilla & Anwesha Chakraborty on anti-corruption technologies in Brazil and India

This episode from the margins of the International Anti-Corruption Conference in Washington DC features Shannon Green, Executive Director of USAID's Anti-Corruption Task Force. Shannon talks to Liz Dávid-Barrett about the agency's new anti-corruption strategy. They also focus on the challenge of fighting kleptocracies and USAID's new dekleptification guide.

Here are links to the resources discussed

USAID anti-corruption strategy: https://www.usaid.gov/anti-corruption/policy

USAID dekleptification guide: https://www.usaid.gov/anti-corruption/dekleptification

85. Shannon Green on USAID's approach to anti-corruption and dekleptification

This episode features a discussion between regular KB host Liz David-Barrett, and Kevin E. Davis, the Beller Family Professor of Business Law at NYU School of Law. Their conversation centres on the international regulation of bribery and corruption, specifically focusing on the U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA), following President Trump's recent suspension of its enforcement. The episode explores the potential implications for U.S. companies, foreign entities, and international anti-corruption efforts.

Read Kevin's recent blog post on this issue here: https://wp.nyu.edu/compliance_enforcement/2025/02/21/implications-of-pausing-fcpa-enforcement/

And his paper on international regulation here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4506000

128. Kevin E. Davis on the FCPA enforcement pause

For this special episode Nils and Christopher sat down to reflect on the first 20 episodes of Kickback and discuss some plans for the 2020. 

For those who want to support us financially to cover our running costs: https://www.patreon.com/kickbackpodcast

For those who want to follow us via Social Media:
https://twitter.com/KickbackGAP
https://www.facebook.com/KickBackGAP

The Kickback team wishes you a happy holiday season! We look forward to 2020!

Chapter I - Basics
1. Susan Rose-Ackerman on the principal-agent theory of corruption
5. Bo Rothstein on corruption as a collective action problem and long term fixes
7. Paul Heywood on which questions to ask to gain new insights into the wicked problem of corruption

Chapter II – Perspectives on Corruption
12. Oguzhan Dincer on measuring corruption at different levels & historic developments in Turkey
13. Cristina Bicchieri on social norms of corruption, Antanas Mockus and Soap Operas
16. Kevin E. Davis on his book "Between Impunity & Imperialism" and fighting transnational bribery
17. Shaul Shalvi on behavioral ethics and the psychological roots of corruption
19. Monika Bauhr on need vs. greed corruption and how it is linked to gender

Chapter III - Regions
4. Paul Lagunes on transparency 2.0, the importance of citizens for anti-corruption in Latin America
11. Daria Kaleniuk on the anti-corruption reforms in Ukraine
14. Kieu Vien on encouraging discussions about corruption & shaping anti-corruption laws in Vietnam
20. Leonor Ortiz Monasterio & Miguel Meza on anti-corruption in Mexico

Chapter IV - Journalism
6. Frederik Obermaier on Panama Papers, Ibiza video & the role of media freedom for anti-corruption
8. Alina Mungiu-Pippidi on corruption in Romania, democratic transitions, advise for young scholars
18. David Barboza on investigating the hidden wealth of Chinese elites 

Chapter V - Practitioners
2. Deltan Dallagnol on leading the prosecution of the Lava Jato investigations in Brazil
3. Robtel Neajai Pailey on how to teach anti-corruption through children's books
9. Debra LaPrevotte on being an FBI agent, asset recovery, safe havens for cleptocrats & war crimes
10. Elise Bean on financial fraud, money laundering and the top 3 policies to curb corruption
15. Sergei Guriev on the value of governance, inclusion & the internet for anti-corruption efforts

21. Nils & Christopher on the first year and the future of Kickback

This week we have a special episode in which Dr. Ina Kubbe (political scientist, University of Tel Aviv, https://www.inakubbe.com/) interviews Dr. Doron Navot (political scientist,  University of Haifa (https://haifa.academia.edu/DNavot). 

Corruption charges against PM Benjamin Netanyahu and the divided society
After Doron gives a short overview of his work on corruption and populism, the interview outlines the corruption allegations against PM Benjamin Netanyahu, outlining how three main charges are brought against him involving gifts of cigars and champagne, recorded dialogue between Netanyahu and a publisher which allegedly reveals a quid pro quo and the favorable media coverage by the online platform Walla (https://www.walla.co.il/).
The interview continues by giving an overview of the different views on these allegations within the diverse Israeli society, in which no clear majorities exist, leading to a current political deadlock. Doron outlines why Israelis have divergent views about the allegations, touching on lack of trust in the media, public institutions, populism and post-truth politics. 
To give you a more detailed insight into the political landscape in Israel, the corruption allegations and the recent elections we compiled a few articles describing the situation in English in the references below.

Corruption research in Israel
Ina and Doron discuss what (anti-corruption) academics can do about this lack of trust that also affects trust towards academic work on corruption.  Doron then outlines why generally there is little research about corruption in Israel. As a recent exception he describes the new book Corruption and Informal Practices in the Middle East and North Africa edited by Ina and Aiysha Varraich. (https://www.crcpress.com/Corruption-and-Informal-Practices-in-the-Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Kubbe-Varraich/p/book/9780367422264)
In it, Ina and Doron wrote a chapter about corruption informal practices in Israel, which leads to a discussion about the concept of Combina, which describes the combination of interest and opportunities. While at times it describes forms of favoritism, at times it is used as a euphemism for corruption, or illegalism. (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=combina). Doron outlines how combina, similar to the concept of wasta, describes the connections that are often necessary but not sufficient for success.
The interview closes on a discussion about different forms of corruption and how common they each are. Dorot outlines why many forms of street level corruption are rather uncommon in Israel, what role political institutions play, which trajectories he sees for the future of the Israeli state and what to learn of Israeli anti-corruption efforts.

Pick of the pod 
When asked about literature on corruption, Doron recommends
Paul Heywood’s Political Corruption: Problems and Perspectives
(https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-9248.00089) 
And the work by Michael Johnston (see for example here: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-66254-1_2) 

References
Articles outlining the allegations against Netanyahu and the political support for him: 
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/11/28/binyamin-netanyahus-allies-reconsider-their-indicted-leader
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/11/21/charges-against-israeli-prime-minister-benjamin-netanyahu-explained/  
https://www.972mag.com/netanyahu-just-indicted-corruption-heres-need-know/
Article on the corruption allegation and the election: 
https://www.972mag.com/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-elections-2020/

26. Doron Navot on corruption allegations against Netanyahu, post-truth & the concept of Combina

In the first part Mushtaq and Paul outline the milestones in their carriers as corruption researchers. 

ACE
The next section of the interview takes a deep dive into the Anti Corruption Evidence Program. Paul outlines how it was initiated after concerns about the lack of evaluation of development projects and the risk of development spending being lost due to corruption were voiced. As a response DiFiD developed AntiCorruption Evidence, which has two parts:
A Research partnership consortium led SOAS ACE which is led by Mushtaq and GI ACE which consists of grants competition for leading international researchers to examine the most effective ways to fight corruption.
Mushtaq gives some background information about how SOAS ACE consists of projects that are linked and share a common theory of change, which focus on Nigeria, Tanzania and Bangladesh. Mushtaq argues that the reason why many anti corruption efforts have failed lies in the assumption that most people in developing countries follow rules and a few greedy people break the rules. The common approach has then been to  find and punish these “bad apples” in order to get rid of corruption. SOAS ACE however starts from the assumption that in many developing nations, people do not have the capacities to follow rules leading to a large informal sector. Also politics in developing nations is different. There is less tax revenue in developing nations, leading to more clientelism. 
In order to then bring about anti-corruption one has to identify the demand for anti corruption. That is, finding organizations which need a rule of law in their own interest and are powerful enough to demand it. He then outlines how the rule of law is different from rule by law and how economics can help to identify a market for anti corruption. 

Paul in turn outlines the approach of GI ACE which has four features: a) Focus on anti-corruption, b) a focus on real world problems real issues, c) politics of anti-corruption, and d) demonstrating  impact. It marks a swing towards local problem driven approaches. In this work GI ACE is focused on three core themes, namely International architecture enabling illicit financial flows, promoting integrity and moving away from nations as units of analysis. 
He comments on whether the integrity turn by organizations such as OECD and World bank indeed offers a better approach than classical anti corruption efforts. 
In the last part of the interview you can find out how much cross-fertilization happens between GI and SOAS ACE and how Paul’s and Mushtaq’s views differ when it comes to intrinsic integrity and how research in behavioral ethics might provide empirical answers (for more info on the study by Gächter that Paul mentions see references or this Kickback episode: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/17-shaul-shalvi) 

References
Matthew’s blog post Blogging in a Time of (Mostly Unrelated) Crisis–A Note to Readers can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/GABCorona 
Gächter, S., & Schulz, J. F. (2016). Intrinsic honesty and the prevalence of rule violations across societies. Nature, 531(7595), 496-499.

27. Mushtaq Khan and Paul Heywood on Anti-Corruption Evidence (Part I)

Taryn Vian (@TarynVian), Prof. at the Department of Population Health Sciences, School of Nursing and Health Professions, University of San Francisco (USF). 

For people who think about the relationship between corruption & public health, what are some of the main lines of research & what are some of the important findings?
Taryn outlines that one main problem lies in the fact that people have to pay doctors for public health services that are supposed to be free of charge. Quantitative & qualitative studies have investigated why people pay doctors & how they know why they have to pay or give “gifts” while intervention has tested how corrupt practices like informal payments & absenteeism can be reduced. 

What does health care corruption- look like during times of emergencies in comparison to “normal times”? 
Taryn points out that one of the risk factors for corruption during emergencies stems from the pressure to finish things quickly. Such pressures can create incentives to ignore controls. As a result, higher tolerance of saying “we’ll figure out the paperwork later” often emerges.

In an emergency situation is it even more important that we stick to corruption guidelines or not? How do you implement the right measures in emergency situations?
Taryn describes audits conducted by the catholic relief service after a natural disaster revealing 100 findings. Yet, closer examination often revealed that minimal mistakes were committed such as a single missing signature out of four. This suggests that we need to find a different procedure for times of emergency. There are streamlined processes e.g. for the procurement of emergency medicine. 
How many countries in the world have implemented emergency measures/procedures? Are there examples?
There were gaps in procurements of test kits in the US because the US proceeded as business as usual. Many countries have emergency procurement procedures. The question is how to launch such special procedures at the right time for the right products & also still holding people accountable. 

What observations do you have on a relation between the coronavirus pandemic & corruption?
One place where Taryn sees a link between corruption & the Coronavirus play out is in the US. Here, one of the big problems is that the government has not appointed actors, which undermines the trust between decision-makers & scientific leaders. There is a lack of trust in science in our government right now. The personalization of power is a big problem. Such distrust can have very adverse effects. 

In a public health crisis, the government needs to give directives to people. Directives that are not popular. If there is no trust in the government, people will not want to follow their directives. 
Yes, e.g. Ebola crisis in Sierra Leone & Liberia. People were actively avoiding government directives because there was no trust. Corruption during “normal” times eroded the trust towards the government bodies which undermines emergency response efforts as people might to not comply with the recommendations or orders of the government.  

Informal payments & bribes during normal times do have an adversarial effect on trust in the payment system. Can you elaborate on the evidence for this claim?
Dagmar Radin looked at the connection between corruption & trust. She argued that there is a connection. Other work showing similar links stems from Nicaragua, where a comparison of social audits over a 4 year period has been conducted, showing that trust increased when the government tried to work against informal payments. 

Which measures have been effective in reducing corruption in the health sector under control?
There is a famous study on community monitoring in Uganda by the World Bank showing promising effects of involving communities to increase accountability. However, studies by the Harvard Kennedy School in Tanzania did not exactly replicate the findings above. There have been many interventions against corruption.

28. Taryn Vian on corruption risks in the health sector & distrust in science in times of COVID-19

29. Mushtaq Khan & Paul Heywood on populism, digital technologies & RCTs (Part II)

Social norms of Corruption
The interview picks up on a discussion about research on social norms and corruption, mentioning the distinction between descriptive and injunctive norms (for more insights check out our previous episode with Prof Bicchieri  https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/13-cristina-bicchieri-on-social-norms-of-corruption-antanas-mockus-and-soap-operas).

In evaluating these and other projects, Paul points out the general challenge to measure success in anti-corruption projects. Many insights can serve as a proof of concept, that then need further support via follow-up research. One promising example is the work by 
Liz David-Barret and Mihály Fazekas on identifying red flag risks in procurement by using big data (see here: https://ace.globalintegrity.org/redflag/)  and the work by Jan-Hinrik Meyer-Sahling and Christian Schuster on training civil servants (https://ace.globalintegrity.org/projects/ethics/). Further resources need to be invested to gain better insights and to evaluate the success more broadly. 

Can it be a problem that there is apparently no progress in anti-corruption (at least when looking at the CPI)?

Paul outlines that major organizations such as the World Bank are aware that the standard toolkit approach of the last 25 years has not worked very well. They start to ask themselves what they can do. There is space for further support. So when it comes to the donor’s perspective, the lack of progress does not lead to apathy but a rethinking of corruption efforts. When it comes to the public perception of apparent lack of progress, Paul outlines that this unfortunate, yet something that we on our own cannot address. At the same time he emphasizes the work with the change agents who can help to bring about real change.
Mushtaq adds that indeed, not all problems can be immediately addressed. It often requires a long transition for corruption on a broad scale to be reduced.  Development will not happen without detailed anti-corruption work across different sectors. At the same time, he argues that there are some forms of corruption that can be addressed pretty quickly. Having more nuanced, sectoral-level indicators, will help to better understand which efforts have impact and are feasible. He thereby proposes a “radicalism of digging into solvable problems” and working hard to solve them.  

The double-edged sword of public perceptions about corruption
Large scandals have helped to get a better understanding about corruption among key policy makers. Particularly important have been the revelations such as the Panama papers (see more insights Kickback #6: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/6-episode-frederik-obermaier ) as they show that corruption is a multi-faceted concept, not a thing. It is complex, dynamic, and new forms of corruption often emerge, in particular revealing that corruption often occurs in networks that span across several countries. These revelations have raised awareness and moved away from a simple interpretation of corruption. Yet, at the same time, the public eye, such revelations might reinforce a view that corruption is widespread.

29. Mushtaq Khan & Paul Heywood on populism, digital technologies & RCTs (Part II)

The interview starts with Sam outlining how the documentary about Eliot Spitzer, called Client 9, got him interested in corruption and how it inspired him to study an MA in corruption research at the University of Sussex.

Sam describes the research questions he sought to answer with his dissertation on party financing and corruption. Namely, he unpicks the relationship between money and politics, using interviews to examine whether the amount of state subsidy has an effect on perceptions about corruption and which types of corruption it brings about. Here he builds on Michael Johnston’s work on syndromes of corruption

Sam describes how his dissertation shaped his perceptions about the amounts of money involved in politics, referring to the famous example of Stuart Wheeler who held the record for the highest donation of 5 million pounds to a political party in the UK. 
One of the main insights from his work comparing party financing in the UK and Denmark is that perceived donor based corruption does not differ between the countries even though the party financing is mostly private in the UK and largely state-funded in Denmark .
Sam describes how he went about conducting elite interviews and how he managed to get people talking about corruption. The interview tackles the question of what even counts as corruption when it comes to financing political parties: is it access or influence? Sam, Christopher and Nils discuss the complex nature of networks of influence in politics and how perceptions and reality about the effect of money on policy might at times differ starkly. Sam refers to the so-called Thomas theorem  - if people define situations as real, they are real in their consequences - and how perceptions about corruption often might follow a similar logic. Zeroing in on perceptions about corruption Sam compares the public’s views on corruption to a thermostat. 

The last part of the interview deals with Sam’s work on Facebook advertising and party financing. It shows how Facebook advertising works and how it essentially differs from classical political campaigning. One main difference is that it allows political parties to use Facebook and similar services to test ads. For more information about how social media is used in political processes Sam recommends “Who targets me?” 

Christopher drawing on work by Helen Margetts which argues that “Social Media May Have Won the 2017 General Election” asks about the corruption risks that emerge with social media advertising by political parties. Sam describes several corruption risks that arise from social media political campaigning, referring to the challenges outlined in a recent report by the Electoral Reform Society

30. Samuel Power on (corrupt) party financing and the political economy of Facebook advertising

This podcast series features in-depth interviews with a wide range of corruption experts, on questions such as:
What have we learned from 20+ years of (anti)corruption research? 
Why and how does power corrupt?
Which theories help to make sense of corruption?
What can we do to manage corruption?
How to recovery stolen assets?

128. Kevin E. Davis on the FCPA enforcement pause

KickBack - The Global Anticorruption Podcast

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