Kath Murdoch is a well known and hugely popular teacher, writer, university lecturer and consultant who has worked for many years with teachers and students in schools all over the planet. The author of 15 books and numerous articles for teachers – including the best selling ‘The Power of Inquiry’ (2015) - Kath is widely respected for her work in the field of inquiry-based learning in which she has taught, researched and published for well over 30 years. In fact, so popular is Kath’s work in the field of inquiry learning that she was recently described to me by a teacher in an International School as the Beyonce of the PYP (the Primary Years Programme, the International Baccalaureate curriculum for 3 to 12 year olds). 

Here's where you can buy 'The Power of Inquiry':

UK: https://store.kortext.com/the-power-of-inquiry-793815 

Australia: https://www.kathmurdoch.com.au/where-to-buy 

USA: https://www.follettibstore.com/search

Here's Kath's website: https://www.kathmurdoch.com.au/

And here's her TED talk, The Power of Ummmm...: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFt15Ig64Yg

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S1E15: Kath Murdoch on planet earth, paradox and the power of inquiry

Tom Sherrington is one of those guests who probably needs no introduction, but in case his prolific output has somehow passed you by these last few years, here’s a quick one. A former teacher and school leader for over 30 years, more recently Tom has become a hugely popular blogger, author and training provider. His blog (teacherhead.com) has had approaching 7 million hits, and his recent books Rosenshine’s Principles in Action and the Teaching Walkthru series, co-authored with Oliver Caviglioli, are pretty much permanent fixtures at the top of the educational book charts. Tom also previous authored ‘The Learning Rainforest’, in which he set out his philosophy and vision for education. 

In the first part of the conversation, you may notice that there were a few minor glitches due to faltering bandwidth. I’ve done my best to edit these out but some of them I’ve kept in, a) because you can tell what is being said, and b) it was interesting stuff. Anyway, whenever it happens, it’s a short lived problem, so please do not adjust your set.

I really enjoyed this wide-ranging and at times quite emotive conversation with Tom in which, among other things, we discussed Rosenshine’s Principles of Instruction, the importance of effective behaviour management systems and why we need to stop grading schools.

LINKS:

Edugive https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/edugiveuk-curriculum-conference-tickets-154120832559 

National baccalaureate consultation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A6JELAzzkTAdihmrVS2I5GEp_pEF92tX3oDp-RGb9mw/edit 

The Learning Rainforest: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Rainforest-Great-Teaching-Classrooms/dp/1911382357

Rosenshine’s Principles of Instruction: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rosenshines-Principles-Action-Tom-Sherrington/dp/1912906201

Teaching Walkthru Vol. 1: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Teaching-WalkThrus-Five-step-instructional-coaching/dp/1912906767

Teaching Walkthru Vol. 2: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Teaching-WalkThrus-Five-step-instructional-coaching/dp/1913622479

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

You can join the Rethinking Education Mighty Network here: https://rethinking-education.mn.co

S1E19: Tom Sherrington on Rosenshine, behaviour and why we should stop grading schools

Dr Naomi Fisher is a clinical psychologist with a doctorate in clinical psychology and a PhD in Developmental Cognitive Psychology, focusing on autism. She is also the mother of two self-directed learners, having decided not to send her children to school. 

Naomi is the author of 'Changing our Minds: How children can take control of their own learning'. It's about self-directed learning and it's an absolutely brilliant read - I really can’t recommend it enough. We talk about the book in depth in this conversation.

Naomi also recently appeared in one of the Rethinking Education campfire conversations - a brilliant episode called Self-Directed Learning - Dare to give young people autonomy - which you can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh2qgFo2C6c 

LINKS:

TED talk with Molly Wright: https://www.ted.com/talks/molly_wright_how_every_child_can_thrive_by_five 

Some of Naomi's recent articles:

The how and why of the classroom: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/how-and-why-classroom 

School's out(setting out some arguments for self-directed learning): https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-33/march-2020/schools-out

School's really out: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/schools-really-out

Naomi's brilliant book, Changing our minds: https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/naomi-fisher/changing-our-minds/9781472145505/

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at https://rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

You can join the Rethinking Education Mighty Network here: https://rethinking-education.mn.co

Buy James a coffee here: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

S1E25: Dr Naomi Fisher on self-directed learning and how schools can do more harm than good

Today I’m speaking with Mary Helen Immordino-Yang, whose work is, I honestly think, the most important I’ve yet come across in all my years of dabbling in education research and trying to understand how young people learn and develop, what we should be doing in schools to help them, and what we should maybe stop doing as soon as is humanly possible.

Mary Helen is a Professor of Education, Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of Southern California and the Director of Candle: the Center for Affective Neuroscience, Development, Learning and Education, which, among many notable achievements, is surely the most successful academic acronym of all time.

Mary Helen and her team study the psychological and neurobiological development of emotion and self-awareness. In particular, her work highlights the importance of emotions, sociality and culture in young people’s social, cognitive and moral development. She uses cross-cultural, interdisciplinary studies of stories and the feelings they induce to shine a light on the neural networks that underpin identity, intrinsic motivation, and deep, meaningful learning. Mary Helen’s work often features children and adolescents from disadvantaged communities, and she often involves young people from these communities as junior scientists who are participants, as well as subjects, in her research.

A former public high-school science teacher, Mary Helen has a doctorate in human development and psychology from Harvard University, and she completed her postdoctoral training in social-affective neuroscience with Antonio Damasio, whose research has been incredibly important in shaping Mary Helen’s work.

In 2016, Mary Helen published a book, Emotions, Learning and the Brain, which summarises the key findings from the previous decade of her work. I can’t recommend this book highly enough to anyone with an interest in how children and adolescents learn. I really think it’s an incredibly important read, as is the work Mary Helen has done in the 5 years since the book was published. 

Mary Helen has received numerous awards for her research and impact on education and society, including an Honor Coin from the U.S. Army, a Commendation from the County of Los Angeles, a Cozzarelli Prize from the Proceedings of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and a host of early career achievement awards too numerous to mention. 

Toward the end of the conversation, we talk about three networks of the brain - the default mode network, the salience network and the executive control network. Understanding what these three networks do, and how they interact, is absolutely central to understanding the importance of Mary Helen’s work. I was hoping that we would have time to discuss these three networks in the conversation, but unfortunately we ran out of time toward the end of the conversation. 
Fortunately however, Mary Helen recently co-authored a paper with her colleague Doug Knecht, which explains these three brain networks and how they work and interact in lay terms. The paper is called ‘Building Meaning Builds Teens' Brains’, and it’s well worth a read.

Links:

Building meaning builds teens’ brains: https://www.ascd.org/el/articles/building-meaning-builds-teens-brains 

CANDLE (The Center for Affective Neuroscience, Development, Learning and Education): https://candle.usc.edu/ 

The Rethinking Education Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co/feed 

Contribute to the Rethinking Education project: https://www.patreon.com/repod

Buy James a pint, a coffee - or perhaps even a pint of coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

S2E1: Mary Helen Immordino-Yang on the neurobiological case for progressive education

Today I am speaking with behaviour specialist and volcano of positivity Adele Bates. As you will hear at the start of our conversation, I worked with Adele for a short period, and so I speak with experience when I say that the second you meet her, you immediately realise that you are dealing with an incredibly compassionate, thoughtful, unique human being. 

Adele has recently written a fascinating, down to earth, warts-and-all book called 'Miss I don’t give a Sh*t: Engaging with Challenging Behaviour in Schools.'

Here are some of the lovely things people have said about the book:

“Looking for a breath of fresh air when it comes to behaviour management? Look no further. With wit and wisdom, passion and compassion, Adele Bates not only puts the relationships between teacher and young person at the heart of the educational endeavour, but also gives that young person a voice.” (Ian Gilbert)

“Adele Bates has written a highly readable book brimming with practical ideas, exuberant optimism and encouragement of experimentation. She urges practitioners to see beyond the so-called bad behaviour to the human being in context. This is a book that celebrates the importance of reflection, empathy and care, including the all vital task of self-care.” (Melissa Benn)
 
‘This book offers an in-depth, detailed and nuanced overview of the subject of behaviour, with a particular focus on building relationships, helping pupils to feel safe and on teacher self-care. It is a must read book for all teachers, and will be particularly helpful for those working in the most challenging contexts, staff in alternative provision and those working with children who have SEND and SEMH.’ (Sue Cowley)
 
At just over an hour, this is a shorter episode than usual. But there is loads packed into this conversation and you will come away with practical ideas for how to work with young people who present with challenging behaviour in schools. As someone who has worked in schools in which dealing with behaviour was a daily challenge, I really wish Adele’s book had been around when I entered the profession.
 
LINKS

Adele’s website: https://adelebateseducation.co.uk/ 
 
Adele’s book: https://www.waterstones.com/book/miss-i-dont-give-a-sh-t/adele-bates/9781529731569 
 
Mighty Network Welcome Video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=47xZ73YPTNs

Rethinking Education Campfire Conversations playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ6mCUmebHJNC-qrWX9gMBCQJtHxoGNh2

The Rethinking Education Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co/feed

Become a Patron of the Rethinking Education project: www.patreon.com/repod

Buy James a pint, a coffee - or perhaps even a pint of coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S2E5: Adele Bates on self-care, self-regulation and dealing with challenging behaviour

Sarah-Jayne Blakemore is Professor of Psychology and Cognitive Neuroscience at the University of Cambridge and co-director of the Wellcome Trust PhD Programme in Neuroscience at University College London.

She has been awarded a number of prizes over the last 20 years or so, including the British Psychological Society (BPS) Doctoral Award, the BPS Spearman Medal for outstanding early career research, and the Royal Society's Rosalind Franklin Award. She was also the winner of the 2018 Royal Society Prize for Science Books for her brilliant book 'Inventing Ourselves: The Secret Life of the Teenage Brain'.

I’ve wanted to speak with Sarah-Jayne for a really long time - not just about her brilliant work on the teenage brain, but because of her work with Rethinking Assessment, and a fascinating blog she wrote recently about how GCSEs are misaligned with what we know about how teenage brains develop (see below).
 
LINKS

SchoolsWeek review of the Rethinking Education conference: https://schoolsweek.co.uk/the-review-the-rethinking-education-conference/ 

Tina Farr blog: Mainstream educators and Unschoolers: Never the twain shall meet? - https://headlearnercom.wordpress.com/2022/09/26/mainstream-educators-and-unschoolers-never-the-twain-shall-meet/ 

Sarah Jayne’s book ‘Inventing ourselves - The secret life of the teenage brain’ - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inventing-Ourselves-Secret-Teenage-Brain/dp/1784161349/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1524214280&sr=1-1 

Sarah Jayne’s TED talk ‘The mysterious workings of the adolescent brain’ - https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_jayne_blakemore_the_mysterious_workings_of_the_adolescent_brain 

Sarah Jayne and Tamsin Ford's 'Neuroscience, adolescence and GCSEs - a misalignment?' - https://rethinkingassessment.com/rethinking-blogs/neuroscience-adolescence-and-gcses-a-misalignment/

The Rethinking Ed Conference (>90 videos): https://www.rethinking-ed.org/reconf22 

Rethinking Education Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co 

Become a patron: www.patreon.com/repod

Buy me a coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S3E1: Sarah-Jayne Blakemore - The GCSE is misaligned with adolescent brain development

Sophie Christophy is a culture transformer, feminist, unschooling parent and activist. She works on deconstructing patriarchy, from childhood socialisation in education and family culture, and in organisational culture, by creating a shift to principles of consent and self-direction. 

As a conduit for the emergence of a consent-based social and environmental paradigm, Sophie works with individuals and organisations on deschooling, integrating consent and self-direction based principles into practice, and on enhancing authenticity, integrity and transparency by aligning beliefs with behaviour. She also works these principles in her own life. 

Sophie believes that consent-based self-direction is the key and pathway to self-actualisation and transcendence – something that all humans have the potential to experience in their life time – and, to being in right relationship with nature and planet of which we are part. 

Since 2017 she has been running a Consent-Based Education course, working with people from all around the world on their transition from the dominant culture to this new emerging paradigm. In addition to this, she runs bespoke trainings and workshops, and is an inspiring guest speaker on themes including consent-based education and skillset, children’s rights, ethical change-making and paradigm shifting, and guidance for start-up founders of consent-based, self-directed settings. 

In January 2018, she co-founded a consent-based, self-directed education setting called the Cabin, for home educated young people aged 5-11. To our knowledge, the Cabin is the first education setting for children in the UK to be explicitly designed through a lens of consent, self-direction and children’s rights. It is also the first to identify itself as Education Positive – a transdisciplinary education philosophy that breaks down traditional subject silos, hierarchy and gatekeeping, and instead is curiosity driven, problem-solving oriented, rooted in critical thinking, and an open access approach to learning based on  children’s rights.

In 2021 she co-founded the Lodge, a follow on setting from the Cabin, a community for young people up to the age of 16. 

For more details, visit sophiechristophy.com

Here's the Twitter thread mentioned in the introduction, detailing the impact of the Learning Skills curriculum:  https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames/status/1593365917886562314

The Rethinking Ed Conference (>90 videos): https://www.rethinking-ed.org/reconf22 

James on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames 

Rethinking Ed Insta: https://www.instagram.com/rethinking.education/  

James on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

Rethinking Education Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co 

Become a patron: www.patreon.com/repod

Buy me a coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S3E3: Sophie Christophy on consent-based education

If you've come across Jaz Ampaw-Farr before, you'll know that you are in for an absolute treat. 

If you haven't ever heard Jaz speak before - well, what can I say? I could tell you that Jaz is an award-winning educator, teacher trainer, coach and speaker, and soon to be author of her first book. But that doesn't really scratch the surface. Listening back to this episode in the edit, it was noticeable that Jaz made me laugh way more than any previous podcast guest had ever done. She also brought me to the edge of tears on at least five occasions throughout this incredible conversation. But really I think it's her burning sense of moral purpose, combined with an uncanny way with words and crystal clarity of her thought, that makes Jaz such a formidable human being. 

So whatever you're doing as you listen to this podcast, I'd like to invite you to mentally and emotionally strap yourself in. This is quite the roller-coaster.

I hope you enjoy this fascinating conversation with fearless chaos navigator, full-fat resilience ninja and previously underestimated everyday hero, Jaz Ampaw Farr.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: www.patreon.com/repod

Buy me a coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

LINKS:

Jaz’s website: https://jazampawfarr.com

Jaz’s TEDx talk ‘The power of everyday heroes’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3xoZXSW5yc 

James’s TEDs talk ‘How to change the world’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvm9TYosmXo  

Making Change Stick: https://www.makingchangestick.co/ 

James’s interview on the ‘Reasons to be Cheerful’ podcast with Ed Miliband and Geoff Lloyd - How to fix our education system: https://www.cheerfulpodcast.com/rtbc-episodes/fixingeducation  

The Rethinking Ed online conference (88 amazing talks): https://www.rethinking-ed.org/reconf22 

James on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames 

Rethinking Ed Insta: https://www.instagram.com/rethinking.education/ 
 
James on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

Rethinking Education Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co 

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S3E5: Jaz Ampaw-Farr on the power of 'withness'

Dr Chris Bagley is a man with a dazzling variety of hats. He is psychologist, writer and musician with an interest in youth justice, educational transformation and systems change. He is Director of Research at the social enterprise States of Mind, and a lecturer and doctorate supervisor at the UCL Institute of Education. He also works part-time for South Gloucestershire psychology service, primarily in a Secure Children’s Unit and Pupil Referral Unit.

Chris describes his purpose as being to co-develop psychologically healthy education systems alongside young people, families, professionals and creative thinkers. He started in education as a secondary school teacher and later trained as an Educational Psychologist. Chris developed a specialism in relation to Youth Justice, school exclusion and managed moves and practised as a specialist in a youth offending team for a number of years. He’s also an accomplished folk musician who has some really lovely music on his website - there are links in the show notes. 

As Director of Research at States of Mind and in collaboration with UCL, Chris conducts participatory action research to gather young peoples’ insights and place their voices at the centre of education reform. States of Mind have recently launched the ‘Education Futures in Action’ movement which aims to bring together innovators who are actioning education environments that genuinely respond to the diverse needs of young people.

Chris is currently writing his first book - 'Shadow Cultures and the tyranny of school and state' - which is the topic of today’s conversation. It explores the history of UK education, and exposes some of the deeply entrenched, often invisible narratives that underpin the education system we see today.

LINKS:

Chris’s website: https://www.chrisbagley.co.uk/ 

States of Mind: https://www.statesofmind.org/ 

Chris’s talk on Shadow Cultures (and many other great speakers) https://www.educationfuturesinaction.com/ 

James’s TEDs talk ‘How to change the world’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvm9TYosmXo  

Making Change Stick: https://www.makingchangestick.co/ 

Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co 

The Rethinking Ed online conference (88 amazing talks): https://www.rethinking-ed.org/reconf22 

James on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames 

Rethinking Ed Insta: https://www.instagram.com/rethinking.education/
  
James on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: www.patreon.com/repod

Buy me a coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

S3E6: Dr Chris Bagley on the three invisible "shadow cultures" that shaped our education system

Martin Robinson is an educationalist, author, writer, consultant, orator and liberal artist. He worked in East London state schools for more than 20 years as a teacher, head of department, advanced skills teacher and school leader. For the last ten years he has worked as an education consultant delivering workshops and keynote speeches about curriculum design, teaching methodology and culture. He is a regular on the conference circuit both in the UK and internationally. 

Of his first book, Trivium 21C: Preparing young people for the future with lessons from the past, Melissa Benn wrote: "Martin Robinson sets out on a quest to discover the kind of education he wishes for his daughter and we all learn a great deal in the process. I love his writing: wise, well informed, provocative, thinking-out-loud. A terrific feat."

Of his second book, Curriculum: Athena vs the Machine, Ben Newmark wrote: "While the dumb and brutal ugliness of instrumentalist education is all too familiar to many of us, never before has it been so clearly expressed or so convincingly unpicked and exposed... a beautifully written love letter to the very substance of education, a triumphant call to arms, and the manifesto on which the fightback against the Machine should be based."

And of his most recent book, Curriculum Revolutions, Tom Sherrington wrote: "A powerful conceptual framework, designed with the artful craftsmanship of a beautiful clock and insightful understanding of how teachers thrive."

LINKS:

Martin’s website: https://www.martinrobinson.net/

Rethinking Ed Mighty Network: https://rethinking-education.mn.co 

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/RethinkingJames 
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion  
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 
Shout James a herbal tea: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

S3E8: Martin Robinson on creativity, character education - and why trads are the true radicals

Ty Golding (https://twitter.com/tjgolding) is the Headteacher of Holton Primary School, in Barry town in South Wales. Ty has experience of teaching at every level of primary education, including nursery. He has worked with Welsh Government policy development and implementation, developing a national online platform for learners and most recently as Head of Curriculum Design & Development. 

Cat Place (https://twitter.com/catrplace) grew up in Newport where she currently lives with her daughter. Cat is the headteacher of Jubilee Park Primary School in Newport, and had the privilege of opening the school in 2017 - a story you’ll hear all about in this episode. 

In this episode we take a deep dive into the exciting developments that have been happening lately with the Curriculum for Wales. I was already excited about the Curriculum for ales, based on what little I knew of it, and this episode has only intensified that excitement. Based on the work of Professor Graham Donaldson, they have embraced a really bold vision for how to reform education and they’re going for it big time.

LINKS

The Oracy Curriculum: https://www.rethinking-ed.org/the-oracy-curriculum 

Rethinking Education conference - Sat 23rd September, London: https://bit.ly/reconf23

Schools as learning organisations: https://www.oecd.org/education/school/school-learning-organisation.pdf 

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

S3E15: Cat Place & Ty Golding on the Curriculum for Wales

Eliza Fricker is a talented writer and illustrator who has written three books:

'The Family Experience of PDA: An Illustrated Guide to Pathological Demand Avoidance'

'Can't Not Won't: A Story About A Child Who Couldn't Go To School'

And most recently 'Thumbsucker: An illustrated journey through an undiagnosed autistic childhood'

It’s the second of these books that we’re talking mostly about in this episode - Can’t Not Won’t. 

It’s a fascinating read - funny and heartbreaking in equal measure - and Eliza’s illustrations and wry observations really shine a light on what it’s like when your child finds that they are no longer able to attend school.

It really should be recommended reading for any teachers and school leaders, as well as for young people with barriers to attendance, and their families

There is no shortage of young people who struggle to attend school of late - Eliza has cunningly tapped into a growing market.

There are many lessons to learn from this conversation and I’d love to hear your thoughts. 

The best way to stay in touch is via the Rethinking Education newsletter, a monthly round-up of podcast, blogs, conference news and updates about the Education Policy Alliance. 

If you’re interested, sign up at the link below. And you can reply to those emails and let me know what’s going on for you. 

LINKS:

Eliza’s website: https://missingthemark.co.uk/ 
Sign up to the Rethinking Education Round-up Newsletter: https://rethinkinged.beehiiv.com/

DON’T BE A STRANGER:

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at www.rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via a social platform of your choosing:

Twitter: www.twitter.com/RethinkingJames
Insta: www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: www.patreon.com/repod
Buy me a coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

S4E6: Eliza Fricker on parenting a child who can't - not won't - go to school

Peps Mccrea is an award-winning teacher educator, designer and author. He is Director of Education at Steplab and author of the ultraconcise High Impact Teaching series, one of which - Motivated Teaching - is the main topic of this episode. On the side, he writes Evidence Snacks, a brilliant newsletter that we speak about at the top of this conversation, and composes excellent instructional threads on Twitter.

Previously, Peps was a Dean at Ambition Institute, where he oversaw the design of programmes for teachers and teacher educators (eg. Masters in Expert Teaching, Teacher Education Fellows, and Early Career Teachers), he was a Senior Lecturer in Teacher Education at Brighton University, and teacher and leader at various schools.

LINKS

Peps Mccrea website: https://pepsmccrea.com/ 

Sign up for Evidence Snacks: https://snacks.pepsmccrea.com/ 

Sign up for the Rethinking Ed Round-up: https://rethinkinged.beehiiv.com

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://patreon.com/repod
Buy James a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/repod

"Civilisation rests on our shoulders!": Peps Mccrea on motivated teaching

Peter Higgin is the Artistic Director and joint CEO of Punchdrunk Enrichment, a charity that creates transformational theatre for education, community and family audiences.

Punchdrunk Enrichment is an independent charity which was founded in 2008 to take the pioneering practice of immersive theatre company, Punchdrunk, into schools and communities. Listed amongst the 50 most influential artists of the last 50 years (Sky Arts, 2022) alongside David Bowie, Sir Steve McQueen and Vivienne Westwood, Punchdrunk disrupts the theatrical norm, creating worlds in which audiences can rediscover the childlike excitement of exploring the unknown. 

Peter has been involved with Punchdrunk for his entire professional career. In 2000 he graduated from Exeter University and went on to become a founding member of Punchdrunk. He was pivotal in establishing the company’s early work during their rise to critical acclaim and global success. 

Peter has a powerful belief in the transformative power of engaging with the arts and creativity. He believes in the power of imagination as one of our greatest tools and has witnessed how access to immersive experiences can unlock our innate creativity. 

This episode of the podcast is (brilliantly) hosted by former podcast guest Tim Taylor, author of ‘A Beginner’s Guide to Mantle of the Expert’ and coauthor of ‘Try This: Unlocking Learning With Imagination’. 
 
LINKS

Punchdrunk enrichment - https://www.punchdrunkenrichment.org.uk 
Punchdrunk - https://www.punchdrunk.com 
Sign up for the Rethinking Ed Round-up: https://rethinkinged.beehiiv.com

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at https://rethinking-ed.org/contact

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://patreon.com/repod
Buy James a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/repod

Peter Higgin on the power of learning through immersive play

Welcome to the first episode of Season 5 of the Rethinking Education podcast!

As you may be aware, Estonia has consistently been the highest performing European country in the PISA assessments in recent years. This episode features my recent conversation with Gunda Tire, Head of International Assessments (PISA & TALIS) at Estonian Education and Youth Board. 

Gunda very generously gave me almost 2 hours of her time to take a whirlwind tour around the Estonian education system - early childhood, curriculum, assessment, inspection (or the lack of it) - behaviour, attendance, technology - you name it, we cover it. In many cases, you’ll see that Estonia does things quite differently to how we do things in the UK. 

While you can’t just cut and paste education policies from one country to another and expect them to work effortlessly - there is plenty of food for thought here which I hope the Labour education team will give some serious thought to.

LINKS

Free lunches, brain breaks and happy teachers: why Estonia has the best schools in Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/27/free-lunches-brain-breaks-and-happy-teachers-why-estonia-has-the-best-schools-in-europe 

Gunda TIRE: "Estonians believe in education, and this belief has been essential for centuries": https://english.caucasianjournal.org/2020/02/gunda-tire-estonians-believe-in.html 

Gunda Tire - What is Estonia doing right? Presentation about PISA results for Estonia. British Council Education Conference: https://vimeo.com/207516457

Give us a (lovely!) review: https://www.tinyurl.com/raterepod 

Outro track: 'How it is and how it should be' by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

“Let’s Rethinking Education” jingle: https://www.rocktopusmusic.com/   

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted by Dr James Mannion and produced by Sophie Dean. You can contact James at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact 

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 

Buy James a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

"Before 7? They have a childhood." Lessons from Estonia with Gunda Tire

Lewis Wedlock is an academic, mental health professional and masculinities educator from Bristol, England.  

He has spent the last five years working with thousands of young men across the UK in secondary and higher education, engaging them in topics such as feminism, allyship, accountability, sexism, misogyny and VAWG. 

He has designed and delivered several interventions for schools looking to transform their masculinity school cultures, and has worked with hundreds of educators to support them in the journey towards supporting and empowering young men within their school spaces. 

His debut book “Masculinities in Schools” is due to be published by Sage in June. 

LINKS

Lewis’s TEDx talk ‘The crisis of masculinity’ - https://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_wedlock_the_crisis_of_masculinity  

Lewis’s book ‘Masculinities in school’ - https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/masculinities-in-schools/book291711 

Lewis on bringing teachers on the journey towards anti-misogyny work in schools - https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7313467595809046529/?originTrackingId=vFhKtaFiTryFt2v9NuWMIA%3D%3D  

Lewis on safeguarding women and gender-fluid teachers in conversations relating to anti-misogyny work - https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7312383310528143360/?originTrackingId=%2B%2FDoao0qRka%2BXELJ%2BeWPdw%3D%3D 

Lewis on why we need to rethink showing Adolescence in schools - https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7310952725276446720/?originTrackingId=qEDxB5LuRYqggVUxMjo%2F%2FA%3D%3D 

Follow James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. Drop us a line at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 
Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 


Adolescence, masculinities and… Batman (with Lewis Wedlock)

In today’s episode, I bring you a fascinating conversation with John Tomsett and Mary Myatt – two people who’ve done so much to shape thinking about curriculum and leadership in schools over recent years.
Mary Myatt is an education adviser, writer and speaker. She started out as an RE teacher and has written extensively about curriculum, leadership and school improvement – books like High Challenge, Low Threat, The Curriculum: Gallimaufry to Coherence and of course the original Huh.
John Tomsett taught in state schools for over three decades, including 18 years as a headteacher. He’s written widely about leadership and mental health in schools, including Love Over Fear, Mind Over Matter, and Putting Staff First. He’s also one of the leading figures in the evidence-informed education movement and former leader of Huntington Research School in York.
This conversation centres around their latest collaboration, AP Huh, which is part of their brilliant Huh series. The idea behind the Huh books is simple but powerful: to elevate the conversation around curriculum design by listening closely to the people doing the work – subject leaders, senior leaders, teachers, and in this case, those working in alternative provision.
The term Huh comes from the Egyptian god of endlessness, creativity and regeneration – and that spirit runs through everything they write. The Huh books are deeply rooted in the real world of schools, but they always look to what’s possible, what’s better – what could be.
Together, John and Mary bring a huge depth of experience, a deep moral commitment to young people, and a keen eye for what actually works. This was a really enjoyable conversation – and I hope you get as much out of it as I did.
LINKS

Buy AP Huh - https://www.johncattbookshop.com/products/alternative-provision-huh 

Follow John - https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-tomsett-38ba74b3/ 

Follow Mary - https://www.linkedin.com/in/marymyatt/ 

Follow James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. Drop us a line at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 
Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 


John Tomsett & Mary Myatt on Alternative Provision and our splintering education system

In this powerful episode, we speak with two leading commentators on education and children’s rights – Warwick Mansell, independent investigative journalist and founder of Education Uncovered, and Dr Naomi Fisher, clinical psychologist and author of Changing Our Minds.
 
We dig into the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill currently making ita way through Parliament, and ask: who gets to decide what’s best for children?

Warwick examines how the academies system has paved the way for growing inequality, secrecy, and reduced local oversight, while Naomi outlines how the Bill could ramp up state control over home education.

From changes to local authorities to parental rights, this episode uncovers what’s at stake – and why we should all be paying attention.

LINKS

Follow Warwick - https://educationuncovered.co.uk 

Follow Naomi - https://naomifisher.co.uk/ 

Follow James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 

Follow David - https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-cameron-72061a15 

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod

Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 



The Schools Bill: Academies, Homeschooling & School Shaming (Warwick Mansell & Naomi Fisher)

In this joyful and thought-provoking episode, we’re joined by Tom Veck and Andy Hawkings from Rocktopus – the world’s greatest rock band for kids (and educators, as it turns out).
At the last Rethinking Education conference, Tom and Andy did something truly remarkable: in front of a live audience of 500 people, they wrote a brand new song on the spot. With lyrics provided by the audience and four chords chosen entirely at random, they created a tune that’s both hilarious and haunting – and just wait until you hear it. Fair warning: it’s an absolute earworm.
But this episode is more than a musical moment. Tom and Andy – both former teachers – use the lyrics of the song as a springboard for a fascinating conversation about the perks and peculiarities of the English education system. We explore the power of creativity, the limits of conformity, and what it might take to build a system that helps everyone to thrive.
Whether you’re a teacher, parent, policymaker or student, this one’s for you.
In this episode:
A live songwriting experiment with audience participation


Why music and creativity matter more than ever in education


Stories from the classroom – and why Tom and Andy left teaching


Reflections on control, compliance and how to do things differently


We have a narrow curriculum which squeezes out the arts - so let’s rethink education
There is a lack of imagination and not enough fun - so let’s rethink education

Children should be self directed showing us their way let them lead
Transferable skills should be the core of what we teach learn for life

So let’s trust
Let’s be brave 
Let’s do what’s right and not what is required

Let’s have fun
Let’s explore 
Let’s bring back the love forget the fear of being fired!

We're forced to rank the children as OFSTED ranks the schools - so let’s rethink education
We have a lack of agency - we're trapped inside the system - so let’s rethink education

A place of transformation that embraces community school is the heart
A place to dream a place to play a Place to think and love feeling free

So let’s trust
Let’s be brave 
Let’s do what’s right and not what is required

Let’s have fun
Let’s explore 
Let’s bring back the love forget the fear of being fired!

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod

Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 



Rocking the system: Live songwriting, earworms and education reform with Rocktopus

In this powerful and practical conversation, Dr James Mannion and The Real David Cameron are joined by the inspirational Amjad Ali – teacher, leader, inclusion expert, founder of Try This Teaching and author of A Little Guide for Teachers: SEND in Schools – to explore what it would take to fix the SEND crisis.
With over 20 years of experience across a wide range of educational settings, Amjad brings a wealth of knowledge and deep compassion to the question of how we can better serve learners with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities (SEND). Together, we explore:
Why the SEND system is currently under such immense pressure


The barriers that children, families and teachers face every day


What inclusion really means – and how to move beyond tokenism


Practical ideas to create more equitable, compassionate classrooms


The mindset shifts needed at every level of the system
This is a must-listen episode for anyone who wants to make education more inclusive, sustainable, and humane – not just for SEND learners, but for everyone.
LINKS

Follow Amjad - https://www.linkedin.com/in/amjadalitrythisteaching/ 

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod

Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 




Fixing the SEND Crisis – with Amjad Ali

In this wide-ranging and thought-provoking conversation, we're joined by teacher and researcher Richard Bustin, author of the fascinating new book What Are We Teaching?

We delve deep into some of the biggest questions in curriculum and pedagogy today – from the concept of powerful knowledge to the ongoing tensions between progressivism and traditionalism in education. What does it mean to teach in a way that builds pupils' capabilities – not just their test scores? And how can we balance a knowledge-rich curriculum with professional teacher autonomy?

Richard brings a rare blend of classroom insight, research rigour, and philosophical curiosity to this conversation. We discuss:

What powerful knowledge is – and isn’t
How geography “went woke”
Whether the progressivism vs traditionalism debate is helpful or reductive
Why a focus on capabilities might offer a richer way forward
The risks of top-down curriculum mandates
And why teacher professionalism and trust matter more than ever

This is a rich and energising listen for anyone who cares deeply about what – and how – we teach.

Richard Bustin is a secondary geography teacher and doctoral researcher with a focus on curriculum studies, powerful knowledge, and geo-capabilities. His book What Are We Teaching? (2025) is a compelling invitation to examine the deeper messages embedded in our teaching and to reclaim the professional agency of teachers as curriculum-makers.

Links and resources:

Follow Richard https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-bustin-165b7019b/ 

What are we teaching? https://www.crownhouse.co.uk/what-are-we-teaching 

Enjoyed the episode?

Please subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with a friend or colleague. You can also support the podcast on Patreon: https://patreon.com/repod 

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.



What Are We Teaching? Powerful knowledge, capabilities, and teacher autonomy – with Richard Bustin

In this episode, David and James sit down with Jaz Ampaw-Farr to talk about her powerful new book Because of You, This is Me: The stories we tell, the stories we change and the power of everyday heroes. We explore the big themes of the book, including:
The lies we’ve agreed to and how to rewrite them
Why we need a new vocabulary for education
And the everyday heroes who changed the ending for Jaz
Along the way we also touch on the importance of listening to voices of lived experience – a conversation that was sparked by Darren McGarvey’s work and led to some of Jaz’s most insightful reflections.
This episode is a rich mix of personal story, educational insight and practical wisdom.
Links and resources:

Jaz’s book: https://www.crownhouse.co.uk/because-of-you-this-is-me 

Jaz’s TEDx talk ‘The power of everyday heroes’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3xoZXSW5yc 

Jaz’s website: https://jazampawfarr.com/ 

Find out more about the Open School: https://www.theopenschool.uk/ 

Enjoyed the episode?

Please subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with a friend or colleague. You can also support the podcast on Patreon: https://patreon.com/repod 

Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.



“We need a new language!" Jaz Ampaw-Farr on hope, trauma tourism and teachers as everyday heroes

We’re back for Season 6! In this reflective episode, James and David catch up after the summer and explore the “big idea” that’s been emerging across recent blogs and conversations: there is more to human development than learning about subjects.

They discuss the need for schools to make space for personal growth, wellbeing, and learner effectiveness alongside subject learning – and why our current focus on a purely knowledge-rich curriculum isn’t enough to prepare young people for life beyond school.

Along the way, they talk about theatre, conferences, politics, art, and the Everybody Thriving unconference in Manchester.

⏱️ Highlights

Catching up after summer: Edinburgh Fringe, Fringe Review, and the Lost Lear play at the Traverse Theatre (00:01:00)

James’s trip to the EARLI Conference in Austria and the international focus on learner effectiveness (00:07:00)

Hundertwasser’s art and architecture in Vienna (00:09:00)

Reflections on feedback from recent Rethinking Education episodes (00:11:00)

The Supervision in Education Conference at St Mary’s University, Twickenham (00:12:00)

The Everybody Thriving unconference in Manchester (00:19:00)

Audrey Tang, the Taiwanese civic hacker and politician, and her ideas on digital democracy (Plurality, GovZero, Pol.is, and presidential hackathons) (00:24:00)

The Education Policy Alliance and “slice politics” – bridging the gap between grassroots innovation and executive power (00:28:00)

The “big idea”: more to human development than subjects – learner effectiveness, self-knowledge, wellbeing, and systems thinking (00:36:00)

Why subject knowledge alone isn’t working: phones, attention, and the post-literate world (00:44:00)

The Learning Skills Curriculum and Who Am I? project (00:47:00)

The Welsh Government’s Learner Effectiveness Programme (00:49:00)

The purpose of education: human development vs. transactional outcomes (00:57:00)

Future guests: Dave Whitaker and Rupert Wegerith (01:05:00)

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. Drop us a line at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact.

SUPPORT THE RETHINKING ED PODCAST:

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 
Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 

"There is more to human development than learning about subjects" Repod Season 6 launch!

Nick Covington and Kate McAllister on Restoring Humanity to Education
What does it mean to restore humanity to education?
In this rich and wide-ranging three-way conversation, James is joined by Kate McAllister – co-founder of The Human Hive and lead educator at The Hive in the Dominican Republic – and Nick Covington, co-founder of the Human Restoration Project in the US.
Together, we explore:
The dehumanising effects of traditional schooling models
What human-centred education looks like in practice – both inside and outside the mainstream
Self-regulation, executive function and building trust with students
The role of flow in learning, and why it's missing from most education policy discussions
The Third Coast Learning Collaborative – a US-wide, government-funded project using project-based learning, portfolio assessment, and student-led exhibition
The power of authentic audience and interdisciplinary learning
How progressive educators can embrace data to strengthen their case for change
The importance of courageous school leaders and communities of practice
We also talk about Ozzy Osbourne's funeral procession, mangled chicken coops, flow states, poetry circles, grant funding, and catapults launching frisbees across middle school campuses.
Education doesn’t have to be this way. Across the world, a quiet revolution is taking place – one built on trust, flow, curiosity and care. This episode offers a glimpse of what’s possible when we restore humanity to learning.
LINKS 
Follow Nick - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-covington/ 
Follow Kate - https://www.linkedin.com/in/misskatemcallister/ 
Follow James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/ 
Human Restoration Project - https://www.humanrestorationproject.org/ 
The Hive – Dominican Republic - https://www.thehiveadventure.com/ 
The Third Coast Learning Collaborative - https://www.thirdcoastlearning.org/ 
Ron Berger on 20 years of 'An ethic of excellence' - and ending the trad-prog debate! - https://www.rethinking-ed.org/ron-berger 
Gallup Student Poll data on engagement, hope and belonging: https://msnpro1.gallup.com/report-generator/GSP/1.3/En-US?districtId=229403046&schoolId=229403048&cohortId=231774178 
Outro track: ‘How it is and how it should be’ by Grit Control: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1ud69RIV1eOV9poMR7AORI 

DON'T BE A STRANGER

The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. Drop us a line at https://www.rethinking-ed.org/contact.

CONVEY YOUR APPRECIATION FOR THE POD :)

Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 
Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod 



Nick Covington and Kate McAllister on Restoring Humanity to Education

In this rich crossover conversation, Chris Braitch and Dr James Mannion interview one another about trauma, healing, and the deep structural shifts needed in education.

Chris Braitch is a father of three whose mission is to move himself and others towards connection and compassion. He works as an emotional health coach, a leadership coach with Compassionate Leaders Global, and is the founding director of Seen & Heard, a not-for-profit supporting the wellbeing of past and present pupils of the private school system - many of whom have experienced institutional neglect, emotional harm or abuse.

After two decades in global sales and marketing, Chris realised that his life had been shaped by powerful, unexamined forces: early separation, boarding school culture, unresolved childhood experiences, and profound personal grief. Through coaching, men’s groups, the Emotional Freedom Technique, and a life-changing spiritual awakening, he discovered a new sense of purpose rooted in authenticity, service, and compassion. This journey transformed his parenting, his perspective, and the work he now offers to others.

James shares the origins of the Rethinking Education Podcast, his work with the Learner Effectiveness Programme, slice teams, implementation science, and the Education Policy Alliance, and explores why so many top-down reforms fail to shift what actually happens in classrooms.

Together, they explore:


- The “myth of privilege” and why suffering in elite institutions is so often minimised
- How early separation and boarding school cultures shape adult hypervigilance, self-protection, and leadership
- The emotional and spiritual turning points that redirected Chris’s life
- How Seen & Heard supports former pupils, works with schools, and campaigns for safer legislation
- Why spoken language (oracy) is an overlooked equity issue
- Why the system keeps “locating the problem in the child”
- How learner-effectiveness, self-regulation, and holistic education can transform outcomes
- The cultural assumptions baked into British schooling and politics
- Why compassion-centred leadership matters now more than ever

This is a deeply human, hopeful conversation about trauma, awareness, systemic change, and learning to live - and lead - with compassion.


LINKS

- Chris’s not for profit supporting the wellbeing of past pupils of boarding and independent day schools and their families – https://seenheard.org.uk

- Chris’s not for profit supporting the wellbeing of present pupils of boarding and independent day schools and their families – https://seenheardschools.org.uk

- Chris’s coaching business where I support men and women through 1-2-1’s and groups – https://growthwave.uk

The Compassionate Leader Pathway Course - designed to help people lead with purpose, perform with clarity and live with integrity. https://compassionateleadersglobal.com

CREDITS

- The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. 

- Outro track: How it is and how it should be by Grit Control

SUPPORT THE PODCAST:

This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. 

If you’d like to support the podcast or convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can:

Become a patron: https://patreon.com/repod  

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/repod

Boarding school trauma and "the myth of privilege” - a conversation with Chris Braitch

In this energising and wide-ranging conversation, Dave Whitaker joins James and David to explore behaviour, belonging, learner effectiveness, and the courageous cultural work needed to create schools in which every child can thrive.

Dave Whitaker is the Chief Education Officer at the Wellspring Academy Trust, working across 33 schools and alternative provisions in the north of England and Lincolnshire. A former geography teacher who moved through the pastoral route into leadership, Dave is known nationally for The Kindness Principle, his advocacy for relational practice, and his unwavering belief that children flourish when adults lead with compassion, consistency, and high expectations rooted in humanity. His Guardian-featured work on creating exclusion-free, restorative, relational schools challenged the national narrative on behaviour and ignited a conversation that still reverberates today.

Across Wellspring’s mainstream, AP, SEMH and special schools, Dave supports leaders to build cultures of unconditional positive regard, trauma-informed practice, context-specific autonomy, and a strong collective commitment to inclusion. His work demonstrates that it is possible to run high-functioning, high-expectation schools without relying on zero-tolerance, punitive systems - but only if leaders invest in the three-to-five-year cultural journey required to get there.

James and David share insights from the Education Policy Alliance and the urgent need to reconfigure systems that default to behaviourism, high-stakes testing, and top-down reform. They connect these ideas to the recent Everybody Thriving unconference and Wellspring’s Next Decade conference, examining how genuine change happens — and why it so often doesn’t.

Together, they explore:
Why kindness is not a soft option — and why it’s astonishing that this still needs saying
How relational practice sits on a spectrum from zero-tolerance to “batter them with kindness”
Why cultural transformation in schools takes 3-5 years, not weeks
How Wellspring has never had a permanent exclusion
Why some behaviour approaches become “selective by culture”
The misconceptions that plague relational, restorative and trauma-informed practice
The problem with national top-down reform, and why place-based change matters
Why we need a more expansive definition of human development — beyond subjects
How strong cultures give staff autonomy while holding shared values at the core
Why bravery from leaders and trusts is essential in an Ofsted-driven system
This is a hopeful, deeply practical conversation about culture, compassion, courage and what it really takes to build inclusive schools that work for ALL children.

Links
The Kindness Principle (Dave’s book): https://www.crownhouse.co.uk/the-kindness-principle 
Wellspring Academy Trust: https://wellspringacademytrust.co.uk
Dave on Twitter/X: https://x.com/davewhitaker246
Guardian article - ‘We batter them with kindness’: schools that reject super-strict values- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/feb/27/schools-discipline-unconditional-positive-regard 
School isolation rooms are damaging pupil wellbeing, new study warns - https://www.manchester.ac.uk/about/news/school-isolation-rooms-are-damaging-pupil-wellbeing 
Wellspring’s Next Decade conference: https://thenextdecade.co.uk/ 

Support the pod
The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.
This podcast is a labour of love, and we love doing it. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can:
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod
Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod


Dave Whitaker on relational practice, inclusive culture, and “battering them with kindness”

What really happens inside a national curriculum review?

In this episode, James and David go beyond headlines to explore the thinking, tensions and trade-offs behind England’s Curriculum and Assessment Review - with two people who helped shape it.

They’re joined by Lisa O’Loughlin, Principal and CEO of Nelson and Colne College Group, and Jon Hutchinson, Director of Curriculum and Teacher Development at the Reach Foundation - both panel members of the Curriculum & Assessment Review - who offer rare, first-hand insight into how the review was shaped and why its recommendations landed where they did. 

This is an honest, wide-ranging discussion about ambition, constraints, evidence, politics, and what ‘high standards for all’ actually means in practice.

In this conversation, we explore:

What it was like to sit on the Curriculum & Assessment Review panel - workload, process, and pressures
Why the review focused on evolution rather than revolution
The hidden constraints baked into the review - political, practical, and systemic
Why post-16 recommendations matter more than many people realise
The case for broadening pathways beyond a narrow academic route
How oracy and the arts emerged as quiet winners in the final report
The limits of assessment reform - and why GCSEs remain so hard to shift
How evidence, professional judgement and lived experience were balanced
What the review does not do - and why that has frustrated many critics

This episode is essential listening for:

School and college leaders
Teachers and curriculum leads
Policy-curious educators
Anyone trying to make sense of what the review really changes - and what it doesn’t

Links 
Curriculum and Assessment Review - Final Report: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/curriculum-and-assessment-review-final-report 
Follow Jon - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-hutchinson-b3bbb568/ 
Follow Lisa - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-o-loughlin-0637b553/ 
Follow David - https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-cameron-72061a15/ 
Follow James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjamesmannion 


Support #repod 


The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. 

This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can:


Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod 
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Inside the Curriculum & Assessment Review: What Changed, What Didn’t – And Why

Dr Ian Cunningham has published seven books and over 120 articles and papers on topics relating to education, learning, leadership and organisational change. His latest book is ‘Self Managed Learning and the New Educational Paradigm’ (2020, Routledge). Ian is the founder, and chair of governors, of the Self Managed Learning College in Brighton, a democratic educational community for young people aged 9 to 16. His most recent academic post has been as Visiting Professor in Organisational Learning at Kodolányi János University of Applied Science, Székesfehérvár, Hungary.  Other previous academic posts have included visiting professorships in education at the University of Utah, Middlesex University and the Technical Teacher Training Institute, Bhopal. Ian was also Chief Executive of the Roffey Park Management Institute from 1987 to 1993. Ian chairs Strategic Developments International Ltd. In this capacity, he has acted as a learning consultant to most of the world’s largest international companies as well as to the National Health Service, government departments, local authorities and the BBC. Most recently, Ian’s work has involved developing senior coaches at Tottenham Hotspur Football, and developing senior leaders at St George’s, University of London. Ian is a dancer with the Three Score Dance Company in Brighton. His last educational qualification (2011) was to qualify as an oxy-acetylene welder.

Links to interesting stuff mentioned in the podcast:

SMLC on Meridian news: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ4e6uorNSo 
SML in schools – part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZgq0WbeqnY 
SML at Uckfield – part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2OaLsfc3t0 
TEDx talk - Sam Watling on 'Our antique education': https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2s1dnx 
The best thing about SML College: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkHcPEPUlBk 
Life at SML college: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUi6Kxriqw 
The research Ian mentioned showing that adult literacy rates are better than younger students - https://www.jrf.org.uk/press/5-million-adults-lack-basic-literacy-and-numeracy-skills.
Social: Why our brains are wired to connect – the book by Matthew Lieberman Ian mentions toward the end of Episode 4: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Social-Why-brains-wired-connect/dp/0199645043 

The Rethinking Education Podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S1E2: Ian Cunningham on self-managed learning

Dr Ian Cunningham has published seven books and over 120 articles and papers on topics relating to education, learning, leadership and organisational change. His latest book is ‘Self Managed Learning and the New Educational Paradigm’ (2020, Routledge). Ian is the founder, and chair of governors, of the Self Managed Learning College in Brighton, a democratic educational community for young people aged 9 to 16. His most recent academic post has been as Visiting Professor in Organisational Learning at Kodolányi János University of Applied Science, Székesfehérvár, Hungary. Other previous academic posts have included visiting professorships in education at the University of Utah, Middlesex University and the Technical Teacher Training Institute, Bhopal. Ian was also Chief Executive of the Roffey Park Management Institute from 1987 to 1993. Ian chairs Strategic Developments International Ltd. In this capacity, he has acted as a learning consultant to most of the world’s largest international companies as well as to the National Health Service, government departments, local authorities and the BBC. Most recently, Ian’s work has involved developing senior coaches at Tottenham Hotspur Football, and developing senior leaders at St George’s, University of London. Ian is a dancer with the Three Score Dance Company in Brighton. His last educational qualification (2011) was to qualify as an oxy-acetylene welder.

Links to interesting stuff mentioned in the podcast:

SMLC on Meridian news: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ4e6uorNSo
SML in schools – part 1: www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZgq0WbeqnY
SML at Uckfield – part 2: www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2OaLsfc3t0
TEDx talk - Sam Watling on 'Our antique education': www.dailymotion.com/video/x2s1dnx
The best thing about SML College: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkHcPEPUlBk
Life at SML college: www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUi6Kxriqw
The research Ian mentioned showing that adult literacy rates are better than younger students - www.jrf.org.uk/press/5-million-a…d-numeracy-skills.
Social: Why our brains are wired to connect – the book by Matthew Lieberman Ian mentions toward the end of Episode 4: www.amazon.co.uk/Social-Why-brain…ct/dp/0199645043

The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.

S1E4: Ian Cunningham on why schools shouldn't exist

"Civilisation is a race between education and catastrophe." (HG Wells)

In this podcast, we take Wells at his word. Hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, Rethinking Education features long-form conversations with fascinating guests about how we might create a more diverse, intelligent, responsive educational ecosystem that works for *all* young people.

If this sounds interesting to you, welcome to Rethinking Education: Education's Critical Friend: https://rethinking-ed.org/podcast

Rethinking Education

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