For this episode, Kate Grealy shares a presentation she recently gave to the Centre for Indonesian Law, Islam and Society at the University of Melbourne in November 2018.

Kate's talk provided an overview about how countering violent extremism (CVE) policies have been incorporated into international development, focusing on global approaches that have been implemented in Indonesia. Kate discusses the implications of the international development sector engaging in work that has previously been conducted by domestic counter terrorism and security professionals, and looks at emerging issues in the field.

15. Kate Grealy on the impact of CVE policies on international development efforts

Kate Grealy discusses the role of the label "radical" in Indonesia's current political climate.
This episode is based on a conference paper Kate recently presented, called Hardliners, Moderates and the Politics of Islam in Indonesia.
Terrorism prevention efforts in Indonesia have long had a strong focus on ideological expressions of extremism within Islam, and claimed to promote a moderate Islam as an antidote to the extremism deemed to create terrorism. Kate's research asks just how useful this type of approach actually is, and why are some extremisms considered riskier than others in the current political climate. It finds that the label "radical", while an important definitional tool, is being instrumentalised by the state and those in positions of power to repress certain forms of criticism and silence those considered a threat.

16. Kate Grealy on the politics of the radical label in Indonesia

For this episode of Sub Rosa, Andrew interviewed Daveed Gartenstein-Ross and Carolina "Nina" Ponzeto from Valens Global. They discuss technology adoption and organisational learning, focusing on terrorist organisations as well as regular commercial start-ups.

This is a lengthy episode, covering a wide range of topics.

The episode first discusses a new report (co-authored by 
Daveed along with Matt Shear and David Jones) on the use of technology by violent non-state actors, such as drug cartels, terrorist groups, or insurgent organisations. This part of the discussion looks at remotely planned terrorist attacks, the use of drones, the use of commercial drones by violent non-state actors, as well as cryptocurrencies and artificial intelligence.

The conversation then turns to Valens Global itself, which is a start-up in the national security sector. Nina, as their Chief Operating Officer, tells us about ways in which Valens Global adopts technology and engages in organisational learning. Part of this discussion looks at how running your own organisation can provide insight into how other organisations are run, including violent organisations, as well as how the academic field of terrorism studies hasn't greatly focused on organisational learning.

Andrew, Daveed and Nina also discuss broader national security debates, how the "marketplace of ideas" can be quite dysfunctional at times, and how start-ups in this area can help address some of these problems but also risk exacerbating them.

The episode runs for about 90 minutes. This is the first Sub Rosa episode recorded over Skype, so there are a couple of patches of poor sound quality. These are mostly in the first 15 minutes, but it clears up afterwards.

The episode was recorded on 11 October 2019, and the main report discussed is now available online: https://valensglobal.com/2019/11/20/virtual-plotters-drones-weaponized-ai-violent-non-state-actors-as-deadly-early-adopters/

17. Tech adoption by terrorists and start-ups, with Daveed Gartenstein-Ross and Carolina Ponzeto

A podcast about security, human rights, conflict, and law, with an Australian and Southeast Asian focus.

Sub Rosa

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