Guest: Peter Martin, Defence Policy and Intelligence Reporter at Bloomberg. 

Revered in China’s diplomatic corps as the founding father of Chinese diplomacy, Zhou Enlai  established the militaristic culture within the foreign office in the early days of the People’s Republic. Yet, for decades, China’s low-key and passive approach to its diplomatic relations prevailed. The more combative style of diplomacy exemplified by, for instance, a former Chinese diplomat in Pakistan Zhao Lijian, is a more recent phenomenon shaped by external and internal changes. 


In this episode of Dragon Road, host Arif Rafiq discusses this “wolf warrior” diplomacy with journalist and author of China's Civilian Army: The Making of Wolf Warrior Diplomacy, Peter Martin. Martin explains the reasons behind the transition from Deng Xiaoping’s cautious approach to President Xi Jinping’s muscular direction. He also speaks about how this brand of nationalism is resonating within China and in countries such as Hungary, the Philippines and Russia, even as some in the Chinese foreign policy establishment quietly express their reservations. Speckled with historic anecdotes, the discussion examines the effectiveness of wolf-warrior diplomacy in the context of changing perceptions of global US leadership post-Trump and China’s own economic self-confidence. 

About the guest:

Peter Martin is a political reporter for Bloomberg News. He has written extensively on escalating tensions in the US-China relationship and reported from China's border with North Korea and its far-western region of Xinjiang. His latest book, China's Civilian Army: The Making of Wolf Warrior Diplomacy, focuses on those on the front line of China's transformation from an isolated and impoverished communist state to a global superpower: China's diplomats.

S01 E07 - China's Wolf Warriors

In this episode, Uzair talks to Dr. Ilhan Niaz about the 2024 elections and their implications for the country. We focused on what has occurred in the past and the various scenarios that could play out.

We also talked about analog autocrats and their shortcomings, and how more repression could create further instability in the country.

Chapters
0:00 Introduction
4:45 2024 elections analysis
15:20 Failures of the analog autocrats
24:40 What can we learn from history?
41:50 Potential political scenarios
51:05 Why no one wants to rule the federation
1:01:00 Conclusion

Episode 186 - How similar is 2024 to 1977?

In this episode, Uzair talks to Farieha Aziz about the ongoing curbs on the internet, with X facing recurring blocks for the last two weeks. We talk about what the courts have said about these blocks, the response from the PTA, and why the industry needs to be more vocal about arbitrary internet shutdowns.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
2:10 Current situation
4:30 What have the courts said?
11:05 The state’s response
20:01 The industry’s response
22:20 Legacy of past laws
29:50 Outlook for the near-term
37:00 Conclusion

Episode 187 - The devastating impact of arbitrary internet shutdowns

In this episode, Uzair talks to Taimur Malik about his political campaign in NA-148, where he competed as a PTI candidate against PPP’s former prime minister Yusuf Raza Gilani.

The margin of victory for the PPP’s candidate was razor thin and Taimur is currently in the process of appealing the results. We talked about the vote count, what was it like to campaign in Multan given the constraints on the PTI, and what comes next for the party, both in the courts and in assemblies.

You can follow Taimur on X @taimur_malik.

Chapters:

0:00 Introduction
2:50 Status of NA-148 election
12:30 PPP’s response to the results
19:00 Campaigning in Multan for the PTI
28:00 Overall appeals of the PTI
37:50 PTI’s alliance with the SIC
44:40 PTI’s strategy moving forward
49:38 Reading recommendations

Reading Recommendations

-	The Constitution of Pakistan
-	Nuskha ha-e Wafa bu Faiz Ahmed Faiz
-	The Lean Startup by Eric Ries

Episode 188 - Competing in the elections as a PTI candidate

In this episode, Uzair talks to Mehu Sitepu about Indonesia’s recently held presidential elections and its outcomes. These elections had a lot of similarities with Pakistan, including the use of social media to woo young voters, allegations of rigging, and questions over Indonesia’s policy towards the US and China.

Mehu Sitepu is an Associate at The Asia Group’s Southeast Asia practice, where she supports clients navigating the region’s complex political and regulatory environments to build business strategies across a variety of sectors, including banking and finance, hospitality, manufacturing, and technology. With almost a decade’s experience as a journalist in Indonesia, including three years in a senior role at BBC News, Mehu has a strong knowledge of Southeast Asia and a far-reaching network of contacts. 

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
2:40 Overview of the political landscape
24:50 Role of social media
30:01 Rigging allegations
35:28 Foreign policy implications
39:25 Economic policies
44:49 Reading recommendations
47:40 Role of the Indonesian military

Reading recommendations:

-	Indonesia, Etc. by Elizabeth Pisani
-	Departure: A Novel by Nh. Dini
-	Indonesian Food by Sri Owen

Episode 189 - Deciphering Indonesia’s Elections

Uzair talks to Khadija Shahper Bakhtiar about Teach for Pakistan and the organization’s mission and vision. The conversation also focuses on the fellowship program being run by the organization and the key challenges facing Pakistan’s education sector.

Khadija Shahper Bakhtiar is the Chief Executive Officer and Founder of Teach For Pakistan, a national nonprofit organization that nurtures leadership to end educational inequity. Teach For Pakistan provides inspired university graduates the opportunity and support to teach for two years in low-income communities through a structured Fellowship program and develop the leadership skills and contextual understandings to affect long-term, system-wide reform for educational equity.

You can learn more about the fellowship here - https://iteachforpakistan.org

Reading recommendations:

-	The Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire

Chapters:

0:00 Introduction
2:40 What is Teach for Pakistan?
10:10 What is the fellowship program?
17:20 How do fellows help improve outcomes?
23:30 Key criteria for fellows
27:55 Major issues in education
34:00 Devolving education
40:44 Focus areas for governments
46:30 Reading recommendations

Episode 189 - Teach for Pakistan - Solving Pakistan’s Education Crisis

This week’s episode focuses on the ongoing Israeli war on Gaza and its implications for the global world order. Uzair talks to Jasmine El-Gamal to get an assessment of Israel’s campaign against Hamas, why Western leaders are out of sync with their own public opinion, and the path forward for ending this conflict.

Jasmine El-Gamal is a national security expert, political analyst and former Middle East advisor at the Pentagon. She is the founder and CEO of Mindwork Strategies, LTD, a consulting firm with a mission to help organisations craft empathy-based, culturally driven approaches to foreign policy, communications and workplace mental health. She has served throughout her 22-year career in various public and private-sector organisations covering issues related to security and international affairs. From 2008-2013, Jasmine served as a Middle East advisor in the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Middle East Policy. 

Born in New York and raised in Egypt, Jasmine’s experiences in the aftermath of 9/11 compelled her to spend her career advancing a less militarized, more humane U.S. approach to the Middle East, first as a U.S. public servant and then as a writer, analyst and media commentator.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
4:10 Israel’s goals and strategy
18:25 Hamas’ surrender and a ceasefire
27:20 Double standards in Washington
41:10 Building coalitions across communities
45:20 Impact on US policy
55:50 The need for patience
1:01:45 Censorship in the West
1:08:00 Reading recommendations

Reading recommendations

- Out of Place by Edward Said
- No Ordinary Time: Franklin & Eleanor Roosevelt: The Home Front in World War by Doris Kearns Goodwin

Episode 191 - How Israel's War on Gaza is Changing the Global World Order

Uzair talks to Dr. Ishrat Hussain about his new book and its key findings. We focused on Dr. Hussain’s view of why Pakistan fell behind India and Bangladesh, why policy stability matters, and things that he is watching for on the economic front.

Dr. Hussain’s latest book Development Pathways 1947-2022 is now available in Pakistan and you can order it here - http://www.libertybooks.com/development-pathways-9786277626198

Dr. Ishrat Husain started his career as member of Civil Service of Pakistan and then spent over two decades at the World Bank 1979-1999, where among many key positions, he became the Bank’s  Chief Economist for Africa, Director Poverty and Social Department,  Country Director for Central Asian Republics. He completed two terms as  Governor  of State Bank  of Pakistan 1999-2005 and has been appointed to chair various commissions and other boards. In addition to his role as public policy practitioner in national and international arenas  he has also taken active interest in scholarly pursuits.  He is author of twenty four books , prominent being Governing the Ungovernable and The Economy of an Elitist state published by Oxford University Press . He has been awarded several international and national awards including the highest civilian award of Nishan e Imtiaz.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
4:00 India’s reform success
12:00 Role of common sense economics
18:30 The role of unconstitutional interventions
30:45 Trading with India
35:50 Bangladesh’s keys to success
42:15 Military Inc and its role
46:20 Growing the pie v. distributing wealth
50:35 Outlook for Pakistan’s economy
56:10 Reading recommendations

Reading Recommendations
-	Search for Stability edited by Maleeha Lodhi

Episode 192 - Why did Pakistan fall behind India and Bangladesh

Uzair talks to M. Abdul Aleem about the role of foreign investment in Pakistan’s economy and the key reforms that foreign investors would like to see in the country. We also talked about what leading executives look for in emerging talent, and the key pain points faced by foreign investors in Pakistan.

Mr. Muhammad Abdul Aleem is the CEO and Secretary General of Overseas Investors Chambers of Commerce & Industry (OICCI). OICCI is the oldest (since 1860) chamber of commerce in Asia. 
OICCI’s members comprising of 210 foreign investors collectively contribute about one third of the total tax revenue of Pakistan besides being the leader in transfer of technology and investment. 

Mr Abdul Aleem has worked in senior positions in both Exxon Chemicals and Engro Corporation, serving in Pakistan and Singapore. Thereafter, he worked with British American Tobacco Group UK (BAT) in Pakistan and overseas, where he ultimately served as CEO of BAT Operations in Cambodia, Mauritius, and Indian Ocean territory. Since 2004, he has served in senior positions with large Government-owned organizations in Pakistan and his last assignment was as the Managing Director, Pakistan State Oil Company Ltd.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
4:30 The role of foreign investors
13:30 Key issues and solutions for the economy
22:20 Why are investors kept away from policymaking?
26:40 Key traits for emerging talent
33:25 Learning from failure
36:40 Reform priorities
42:40 Judicial reforms
46:05 Reading recommendations

Reading Recommendations:

- CEO Excellence by Carolyn Dewar, Scott Keller, and Vikram Malhotra
- Prosperity: Better Business Makes the Greater Good by Colin Mayer

Episode 193 - Why is foreign investment critical to Pakistan's economic success?

Uzair talks to Dr. Ghazala Mansuri about Pakistan’s stunting crisis and its implications for the country’s future. We focused on key causes of stunting, the linkage with Pakistan’s water supply, and what the country can learn from other nations. The conversation also focused on climate change and its impact on human development, especially stunting.

Dr. Ghazala Mansuri is a Lead Economist for the South Asia Region and a Global Lead for the Welfare Impacts of Climate Change at the World Bank. Her work, at the intersection of research and policy, has been published in leading journals in economics and development, including the American Economic Review, the Review of Economic Studies and the Review of Economics and Statistics. Her current research focuses on the effect of public policies on human development, and the impact of climate change and environmental degradation on the agri-food system and its implications for human health, poverty, and inequality. Her recent reports include When Water becomes a Hazard (2018), and the Pakistan Country Climate and Development Report (2022). She holds a PhD in economics from Boston University.

Chapters:

0:00 Introduction
3:05 Nature and scale of crisis
18:10 Water and stunting
25:50 Ways to solve for this
31:50 Climate change and stunting
48:50 What have other countries done?
55:30 What can the government do?
59:10 What can parents do?
1:09:00 Reading recommendations

Reading Recommendations:

-	An Agricultural Testament by Albert Howard
-	The Soil and Health by Albert Howard
-	Farmers of Forty Centuries by Franklin H. King
-	Dirt: The Erosion of Civilization by David Montgomery

Episode 195 - Pakistan's Stunting Crisis

In this episode, Uzair talks to Khurram Husain about the latest decision by the central bank to keep rates unchanged. We talked about why the central bank has a credibility problem and how the IMF is influencing its choices. We also discussed the ongoing conversations between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, why it feels different this time around, and the role of geopolitics.

Finally, we also discussed the upcoming budget, the finance minister’s priorities, and how he can secure his position in the cabinet.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
2:00 Interest rates and the IMF
16:20 Saudi Arabia’s interest in Pakistan
24:45 Role of geopolitics in Saudi conversations
32:18 Budget and reforms outlook
39:05 How long will the finance minister last?

Episode 196 - Budget, Reforms, and the IMF

Tabadlab's Centre for Regional and Global Connectivity presents... 

DRAGON ROAD 

A podcast on China's rise in the world. What is the Belt and Road Initiative? What does it mean for the economies of smaller countries working with China? How will China's rise influence the standing of traditional global powers like the United States? 

Join us as we take a ride along Dragon Road... 

Presented by Tabadlab.

S01 E07 - China's Wolf Warriors

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