Has human behaviour pushed our world to the edge, especially the mistaken belief that the earth’s resources are infinite? And can a shift in human behaviour rescue us? The challenges we face, from collapsing social structures to the climate crisis, have been centuries in the making. It is immensely critical that we take immediate and decisive actions; we must  transform ourselves to improve our circumstances. In his new book “Design for a Better World: Meaningful, Sustainable, Humanity Centered” Don Norman offers an insightful analysis of our missteps and provides a clear remedy for making things better. The book suggests that the pivotal factor for change lies in human behaviour. The book explores this through three main themes: meaning, sustainability, and humanity-centeredness. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with professor Don Norman. We dig deep on these three themes and explore the ideas that a meaningful quality of life, rather than mere monetary gain, restructuring our lifestyles to enhance environmental protection, and adopting an inclusive approach that encompasses all of humanity, can empower us to address the challenges confronting us.

Don Norman is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Cognitive Science and Psychology and founding director of the Design Lab at the University of California, San Diego. Business Week has named Norman one of the world's most influential designers. He was an Apple Vice President, has been an advisor and board member for numerous companies, and has three honorary degrees. His numerous books have been translated into over 20 languages including “The Design of Everyday Things” and “Living with Complexity”. 


We start off by examining the pervasive artificiality surrounding us. Misplaced and disjointed elements, such as non-native plants, high density concrete structures and other artefacts, contribute to environments saturated with artificial constructs. Furthermore, we delve into how our metrics of success are also influenced by this artificiality. We measure our success by using metrics that don’t encompass what really matters. This artificiality has consequently led to an unsustainable sociotechnical system. We touch upon the ramifications of distorted capitalism before delving deeply into the central themes of the book: meaning, sustainability, and humanity-centeredness. Exploring the human quest for significance, we discuss why a sense of meaning is essential for every aspect of our existence. Addressing sustainability, we discuss how to rectify the harm inflicted upon the ecosystem. Finally, we discuss a humanity-centered approach to crafting artefacts and lifestyles that offers a pathway to rectify our current predicament. This discussion has been both enlightening and invigorating.

 
Complement this discussion with “Philosophy of Technology” with Professor Peter-Paul Verbeek available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2021/01/philosophy-of-technology-with-professor-peter-paul-verbeek/
And then listen to  “The Good-Enough Life” with Dr Avram Alpert available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/09/the-good-enough-life-with-dr-avram-alpert/

“Design for a Better World: Meaningful, Sustainable, Humanity Centered” with Professor Don Norman

For a long time, the prevailing perspective on evolution has been that it follows a vertical pathway, where genetic information is passed down from one generation to the next in a linear fashion, resembling a "tree of life." This classical view suggests that species evolve through a process of divergence from common ancestors, resulting in a branching tree structure that traces the lineage of life over time. In his new book “The Network of Life” Professor David Mindell emphasises the need to update this understanding, and explains that evolution functions more like a distributed, decentralised network. In this framework, there are possibilities for horizontal evolution, where genetic material is shared across species in a more fluid and interconnected manner. The book looks at the forces behind horizontal evolution, such as interbreeding, genetic recombination, merging of species, horizontal gene transfer, and coevolution. The network view of evolution leads to a new symbiotic theory of health. It suggests that the future well-being of humans, other species, and our environment relies on how life evolves and adapts within this interconnected web. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps I speak with Professor David Mindell. 
 

Professor David Mindel is a senior researcher of Zoology at the University of California, Berkeley. He is a former professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Michigan, director of the University of Michigan Museum of Zoology, and Dean of Science at the California Academy of Sciences.


We begin our discussion by revisiting the traditional concept of vertical evolution, where life is represented as a branching tree. We explore how this classical framework explains the development of species over time and then shift to discussing two core ideas in evolutionary theory: natural selection and genetic mutation. For much of history, evolution has been viewed primarily through the lens of vertical inheritance.

One reason for this focus on vertical evolution is that early evolutionary studies, including Darwin's, were centred around natural selection, with limited knowledge about genetic mutations. Today, we know they are essential drivers of evolution. We examine how this early gap in understanding may have shaped the preference for the vertical model of evolution.

Next, we delve into the concept of horizontal evolution, and discuss the point made in the book that “horizontal evolution has been happening since life began on Earth”. To set the stage, I ask him to outline what we currently know about the origins of life. We also discuss the intriguing role of viruses.

We then dive into the key discoveries and discuss processes such as hybridization, species merging, and horizontal gene transfer that provide strong evidence for this interconnected view of life. We discuss various contributions of prominent scientists and pivotal studies that have reshaped our understanding of evolution.

Finally, we explore the exciting possibilities that arise from this new understanding. By embracing the network view of evolution, we can enhance research on synthetic life, support assisted evolution to help species adapt to climate change, and revolutionise our approaches to biotechnology, medicine, and environmental sustainability. This has been an insightful and enriching conversation, shedding light on the profound impact of horizontal evolution on our world.

Complement this discussion with ““Zero to Birth: How the Human Brain Is Built” with Professor William Harris” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2022/10/zero-to-birth-how-the-human-brain-is-built-with-professor-william-harris/
And then listen to  ““The Exquisite Machine: The New Science of the Heart” with Professor Sian Harding” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2022/12/the-exquisite-machine-the-new-science-of-the-heart-with-sian-harding/

“The Network of Life: A New View of Evolution” with Professor David Mindell

​​Hunger is far more than the immediate and tangible experience of not being able to find or buy food. While it is true that hunger is often depicted as the physical sensation of an empty stomach—a condition that can be temporarily alleviated by food—the issue runs much deeper. Hunger is more than the absence of food; it is a manifestation of deeper, societal and  structural failings leading to individual and collective trauma. To genuinely combat hunger, we must engage with its underlying causes—economic inequality, systemic discrimination, and societal neglect—and strive to create a compassionate and just society where all people have the resources, respect, and opportunities they need to thrive. In her book "The Painful Truth about Hunger in America: Why We Must Unlearn Everything We Think We Know—and Start Again"  professor Mariana Chilton presents a bold, transformative perspective on addressing hunger and poverty in the United States. The book emphasises that hunger in the United States is underpinned by profound societal and structural failures that perpetuate poverty and ensure that millions remain trapped in cycles of scarcity. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps I speak with professor Mariana Chilton. 

Although the book focuses on the issues of hunger and poverty in the United States, the human experiences and the underlying structural and social root causes it explores are often universal. The insights and key points raised in the book resonate with similar challenges faced in other societies and regions, making its research and findings valuable for broader learning and application.

Mariana Chilton is a Professor of Health Management and Policy at Drexel University's Dornsife School of Public Health. She is the founder of the Center for Hunger-Free Communities, where she initiated impactful programs such as “Witnesses to Hunger”, aimed at amplifying women's voices in the national conversation on hunger and poverty, and the “Building Wealth and Health Network”, which focuses on fostering economic security and healing. Chilton has provided expert testimony on hunger solutions before both the US Senate and the House of Representatives.


Our discussion delves into the intricate connections between hunger and trauma, revealing the emotional and psychological toll on individuals and communities. We examine the persistent nature of poverty and its link to generational trauma and explore the complex relationship between poverty, violence, and systemic inequalities. Professor Chilton provides thoughtful explanations supported by real-world examples and personal stories, many of which are detailed in her book. We touch upon the historical contexts as well. We also discuss challenges involved in conducting research on such sensitive topics, particularly when working with vulnerable populations. The discussion covers both ethical considerations and the logistical obstacles researchers face when collecting data and sharing findings in a manner that respects and empowers participants. Professor Chilton’s insights shed light on the importance of compassionate, inclusive approaches to research and advocacy that prioritise the voices of those most affected by these issues.

Complement this discussion with ““From Pessimism to Promise: Lessons from the Global South on Designing Inclusive Tech” with Professor Payal Arora” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2024/10/from-pessimism-to-promise-lessons-from-the-global-south-on-designing-inclusive-tech-with-professor-payal-arora/

And then listen to “”A Passion for Ignorance” and for Denials and Negations with Professor Renata Salecl” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2020/10/a-passion-for-ignorance-and-for-denials-and-negations-with-professor-renata-salecl/

“The Painful Truth about Hunger in America” with Professor Mariana Chilton

Consider this thought-provoking statement: “Life is information that maintains itself.” This argument, proposed by Professor Christoph Adami in his book “The Evolution of Biological Information: How Evolution Creates Complexity, from Viruses to Brains” places information at the heart of biological systems. Adami's innovative perspective offers fresh insights into phenomena such as the evolution of drug resistance in viruses, the development of cellular communication, and the emergence of intelligence. By framing information as the unifying principle of biology, this approach provides a systematic way to explore the origin of life—both on Earth and beyond. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps I speak with Professor Christoph Adami. 

Christoph Adami is professor of microbiology and molecular genetics & physics as well as astronomy at Michigan State University. A pioneer in the application of methods from information theory to the study of evolution, he designed the Avida system that launched the use of digital life as a tool for investigating basic questions in evolutionary biology. He has received several awards, including the NASA Exceptional Achievement Medal and the Lifetime Achievement Award from the International Society for Artificial Life.

We begin with an in-depth exploration of Shannon’s information theory, focusing particularly on the concept of entropy. This foundation sets the stage for a discussion on how biological systems store and preserve information. We delve into the information content of genes and proteins, highlighting a key idea from the book: “Living organisms know some very important facts about the world they inhabit and thrive in.” 

Next, we examine the concept of genetic information and its storage within DNA molecules and genomes. This includes a detailed look at the nature of this information and the latest understanding of the data encoded within the genome. 

We then turn to the core mechanisms—or laws—of evolution: inheritance, variation, and selection, framing these processes as the measurement, processing, and transmission of information. To describe evolution through the lens of information theory, Adami incorporates the concept of Maxwell’s demon, a thought experiment that challenges the second law of thermodynamics. We discuss this thought experiment in detail and its application to understanding the evolution of biological information.

Finally, we explore the profound question of the origin of life, accompanied by an engaging discussion on viruses. Before finishing this discussion, we also touch upon the nature and challenges of multidisciplinary research. Overall, this has been an enlightening and highly informative journey into the intersection of biology and information theory. 

Complement this discussion with ““The Network of Life: A New View of Evolution” with Professor David Mindell” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2024/10/the-network-of-life-a-new-view-of-evolution-with-professor-david-mindell/
And then listen to  ““Zero to Birth: How the Human Brain Is Built” with Professor William Harris” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2022/10/zero-to-birth-how-the-human-brain-is-built-with-professor-william-harris/

“The Evolution of Biological Information” with Professor Christoph Adami

Astronomy tells the story of humanity's journey from viewing the sky as a flat, two-dimensional dome to understanding it as a vast, dynamic, and ever-expanding three-dimensional universe. This enduring story has been told through countless books, brought to life in words, and crafted into both prose and poetry. But imagine a book that goes beyond simply telling the tale—a book that invites you to actively engage with it, exploring the depths of the universe as unveiled by the most advanced astronomical research and discoveries of our time.

The book “Welcome to the Universe in 3D: A Visual Tour” invites you on a captivating journey through the observable universe, showcasing some of the most awe-inspiring sights in the cosmos—in stunning 3D. Featuring a dazzling collection of stereoscopic color images and with a special stereo viewer conveniently folded into the book's cover, you can experience your cosmic surroundings in a breathtaking new dimension. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Dr Neil deGrasse Tyson, one of the authors of this fascinating and truly one-of-a-kind book.

Neil deGrasse Tyson is a renowned science communicator and the first Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, where he is also a research associate in astrophysics.  

Tyson has received 27 honorary doctorates and the NASA Distinguished Public Service Medal. His legacy is further honored with asteroid “13123 Tyson” and a leaping frog species, "Indirani tysoni", named after him.

We begin by discussing the inspiration behind a book with a built-in stereoscopic viewer and the science behind creating 3D images that come alive through the brain’s intricate processing. This leads to reflections on humanity’s discovery of the universe’s three-dimensional nature, aided by concepts like parallax.  

We explore some of the book’s stunning images, showcasing the cosmos in breathtaking depth, and address challenges in science communication amidst misinformation. The role of policymakers in promoting science as a societal benefit and the future of space exploration are also key topics.  

This has been a captivating and enlightening conversation, filled with moments of Neil deGrasse Tyson’s signature laughter. We conclude with his inspiring words: “Very happy to help you and others bridge whatever gaps need bridged.”

Complement this discussion with ““The Joy of Science” with Professor Jim Al-Khalili” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2022/05/the-joy-of-science-with-professor-jim-al-khalili/
And then listen to  ““A Traveller’s Guide to the Stars” with Physicist, Author and Nasa Technologist Les Johnson” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/03/a-travellers-guide-to-the-stars-with-physicist-author-and-nasa-technologist-les-johnson/


“Welcome to the Universe in 3D: A Visual Tour” with Neil deGrasse Tyson

Sentience is the feeling aspect of consciousness, encompassing the capacity to experience sensations such as pain, pleasure, and emotions. It is the foundation of subjective experience, distinguishing beings that can feel from those that merely process information or react reflexively. Sentience is a crucial component of consciousness. A key question in studying sentience is how it emerges—whether it arises from complex neural processes, a particular form of computation, or something more fundamental. In his book “From Sensing to Sentience: How Feeling Emerges from the Brain”, Professor Todd Feinberg introduces “Neurobiological Emergentism (NBE)”, a theory explaining how sentience naturally arises as an emergent property of brain functions. Emergent properties are features of a system that do not exist in its individual parts but arise through their interactions. Integrating biological, neurobiological, evolutionary, and philosophical perspectives, Feinberg argues that sentience emerges as a “system-level property” of complex neural interactions. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Professor Todd Feinbergy. 

Dr. Todd Feinberg is a board certified neurologist and psychiatrist and Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the Icahn School Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.

We begin by exploring the basic sensory abilities of single-celled organisms, examining how they react to their environment and survive. We then trace the evolution of multicellular organisms, discussing that when they developed into more complex systems, there is a broader substrate for sensing.   A key focus is how sensory abilities laid the foundation for the evolution of advanced neurobiological systems, ultimately leading to sentience. We discuss in detail how simple sensory functions in early life forms gradually evolved into the rich experiences of animals with complex nervous systems.  

A central idea in the book is that “sentience emerges” as a property of complex neural systems. This perspective helps bridge the gap between neuroscience and philosophy, providing a natural explanation for how subjective experiences arise from the brain. We explore this argument in depth.  Overall, this discussion provides valuable insights into the origins of sentience and its role in the evolution of consciousness.

Complement this discussion with ““Sentience: The Invention of Consciousness” with Professor Nicholas Humphrey” with Professor Payal Arora” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/07/sentience-the-invention-of-consciousness-with-professor-nicholas-humphrey/

And then listen to “”The Network of Life: A New View of Evolution” with Professor David Mindell” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2024/10/the-network-of-life-a-new-view-of-evolution-with-professor-david-mindell/


“From Sensing to Sentience: How Feeling Emerges from the Brain” with Professor Todd Feinberg

Humans are no longer the only entities capable of generating language and ideas with fluency. But this advancement raises a profound question: are artificial intelligence systems truly conscious, or are they simply performing an elaborate imitation of human thought? And if, in the future, claims of AI consciousness become more credible, how will that shift our understanding of these technologies? Will we continue to see them as tools, or begin to recognize them as something closer to persons? In his book “The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood”, Professor James Boyle confronts these complex issues. He explores how questions that once belonged to the realm of science fiction have now become urgent and real. He examines how this technological shift might redefine our understanding of personhood and challenge the boundary—"the line"—that separates humans from everything else, as well as persons with legal rights from inanimate objects. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Professor James Boyle to explore these timely, thought provoking and transformative questions.

James Boyle is a professor of Law at Duke Law School, founder of the Center for the Study of the Public Domain, and former Chair of Creative Commons. He is the winner of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award for his work on digital civil liberties.


We begin by talking about the idea of personhood—what it means, how we define it, and what separates beings that have personhood from those that don’t. I ask whether it’s simply consciousness that makes the difference. We then explore why empathy is an important part of thinking about personhood.

Next, we discuss the challenge of using consciousness as a dividing line. If consciousness is what separates those with personhood from those without, how can we use such a complex and unclear concept to draw that line?

In his book, The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood, James Boyle uses many examples from science fiction to explore these tough questions. I found this approach fascinating, and I asked him why he chose science fiction as a way to talk about such deep and complicated ideas.

We also talk about similar issues that came up when thinking about the rights of corporations and other non-living things. Then we move on to what we can learn from how rights have been developed for non-human animals. Finally, we touch on recent court cases involving decisions made by artificial intelligence.

Overall, this was a very engaging and insightful conversation.

Complement this discussion with ““Evolutionary Intelligence: How Technology Will Make Us Smarter” with Professor W. Russell Neuman” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2024/03/evolutionary-intelligence-how-technology-will-make-us-smarter-with-professor-w-russell-neuman/
And then listen to  ““Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/


“The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle

Over a span of five million years, humankind rose from modest origins to become the planet’s most dominant species. Along the way, people changed a lot in how they looked, spoke, and lived. But how did all this happen? The variety we see in humans today is the result of evolution—which began shaping the Homo group about 2.5 million years ago—and migration, as humans moved into new places. In his book “The Five-Million-Year Odyssey: The Human Journey from Ape to Agriculture” Professor Peter Bellwood brings together research from archaeology, biology, anthropology, and language studies to tell the story of human history. He takes us from the earliest hominins in Africa, through the spread of humans across the continents, to the start of farming and rapid population growth. He introduces early human relatives like the australopithecines, Homo erectus, and Neanderthals, then focuses on the rise of Homo sapiens about 300,000 years ago and their journey into Eurasia, Australia, and the Americas. Bellwood also looks at how farming, which began around 10,000 years ago, helped people move to new lands and share their languages and cultures. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I talk with Professor Peter Bellwood.

Peter Bellwood is professor emeritus at the Australian National University. He specialises in the human population prehistory from archaeological, linguistic and biological perspectives. His many books include “First Migrants: Ancient Migration in Global Perspective” and “First Farmers: The Origins of Agricultural Societies. He is the winner of the 2021 International Cosmos Prize.


We begin by discussing how studying languages uncovers our past and tells the story of humans. Language families act like maps, pointing to early journeys of people. Shared words that appear in many tongues offer strong clues about those first moves. Next we look at what ancient DNA and proteins can say about our past. I first ask about the hard job of finding and testing old genetic samples. After that we turn to classic archaeology, and I ask Peter about digging at historic sites. We dive into how a creature unlike any other animal arose, and we touch upon the blank spots that still puzzle us. The book’s idea of “man the tool maker” comes up: does making tools really set us apart? We talk about that in depth.

We then explore the rise and later disappearance of Neanderthals and other early human groups. Our focus shifts to the cultural growth of Homo sapiens, tracing the path from hunting and gathering to more organised farming. We look closely at the first waves of people who moved in search of richer soil and safer homes. The Fertile Crescent in the Middle East gets special attention, as we track the birth of stable villages and maybe the first cities. We also discuss the boats, paths, and simple gear that helped early travellers to travel long distances. 

Shifting dates and fresh finds force us to keep revising the human timeline. We talk about lively cultures that either vanished overnight or slowly faded away. From start to end, the talk has been rich, clear, and full of insights. 

Complement this discussion with “How Cooking Made Us Human with Professor Richard Wrangham” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2019/07/how-cooking-made-us-human-with-professor-richard-wrangham/
And then listen to  ““From Sensing to Sentience: How Feeling Emerges from the Brain” with Professor Todd Feinberg” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/02/from-sensing-to-sentience-how-feeling-emerges-from-the-brain-with-professor-todd-feinberg/


“The Human Journey From Ape to Agriculture” with Professor Peter Bellwood

In a world where scientific work often feels distant and difficult to grasp, the Nobel Prize makes science visible and understandable in a unique way. It is the most recognized and prestigious award for individual scientific achievement, giving a human face to great discoveries and turning them into powerful stories. The winners could be global figures like Albert Einstein or little-known doctors working in remote towns. Some prizes went to breakthroughs later proven wrong, and many names have faded from memory. Yet, as Massimiano Bucchi shows, the Nobel Prize shaped how people saw science throughout the twentieth century—an image that continues to influence us in surprising ways today.

In his book Geniuses, Heroes, and Saints: The Nobel Prize and the Public Image of Science, Professor Bucchi tells the story of how the Nobel Prize transformed science into something more than a technical field. It became an epic human pursuit, shaped by history and shared with the public. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Professor Massimaino Bucchi. 
Professor Massimiano Bucchi is a leading scholar in the field of science communication and Professor of Science and Technology in Society at the University of Trento. He is the former editor of Public Understanding of Science and the author of books, including Newton's Chicken and the co-edited Handbook of Public Communication of Science and Technology. 
We began the conversation with the three main narratives outlined in the book that define the Nobel Prize. First, the scientist as genius—a creative visionary, a brilliant intellect, often portrayed as a solitary figure with a romantic aura. Second, the scientist as national hero—a symbol of international rivalry played out in a peaceful, rational contest. Third, the scientist as saint—a moral exemplar celebrated for humility, modesty, and complete devotion to science.
From there, we traced the history of the Nobel, its origins, and its early role in European society. We examined the first laureates, notable controversies, and famous recipients—including the story of Einstein’s long-delayed award and the “interesting” aspects of the work that finally earned him the prize.
We also explored the Nobel’s impact on public perceptions of science, the ceremonial “royal touch” that surrounds it, and how the prize might evolve in the twenty-first century. We then discuss science communication more broadly.
Overall, it was a rich and fascinating discussion.

Complement this discussion with ““Sharing Our Science: How to Write and Speak STEM” with Professor Brandon Brown” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2024/02/sharing-our-science-how-to-write-and-speak-stem-with-professor-brandon-brown/

And then listen to “On Public Communication of Science and Technology with Professor Bruce Lewenstein” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2022/02/on-public-communication-of-science-and-technology-with-professor-bruce-lewenstein/



“The Nobel Prize and the Public Image of Science” with Professor Massimiano Bucchi

At the heart of the intellectual and cultural awakening that swept across the globe during the first millennium BCE—an era that witnessed the emergence of philosophy, mathematics, science, and nearly all of the world’s major religions—lies a transformative conviction: the human mind is capable of comprehending the universe. Equally profound is the parallel insight that the mind is capable of reflecting upon and understanding itself.

In her book “The Two Greatest Ideas: How Our Grasp of the Universe and Our Minds Changed Everything” Professor Linda Zagzebski offers a compelling examination of these two foundational ideas in human history. She traces how their dynamic interplay has generated enduring tensions, leaving humanity divided in its understanding of the relationship between consciousness and the cosmos. The book argues that these tensions have long shaped debates over how society should be organized—whether in harmony with the natural order or in pursuit of individual autonomy—and they continue to underlie conflicts on issues such as abortion, the environment, free speech, and identity. The book further envisions the rise of a third transformative idea: that human minds can genuinely understand one another, opening the possibility of grasping reality in its entirety. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Professor Linda Zagzebski. 

Linda Zagzebski is Professor Emerita and the Kingfisher College Chair of the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics Emerita at the University of Oklahoma.

We begin our discussion by examining the two central ideas highlighted in Zagzebski’s book: first, that the human mind can grasp the universe, and second, that it can grasp itself. While these notions feel ever-present in contemporary thought, it is easy to forget that they emerged gradually in human history. We consider their significance and origins, tracing early expressions of these ideas in mathematics, astronomy, art, and philosophy. This includes reflections on ancient conceptions of a unified reality governed by a single principle, exemplified in Pythagorean thought, which envisioned the cosmos as bound together by number—a view that continues to echo in Western intellectual traditions. We discuss the discovery of subjectivity and its impact on art and science. 

Our conversation then turns to Zagzebski’s proposal of a possible third great idea: that the human mind can grasp another mind. From there, we reflect on enduring questions: Can we ever fully understand the nature of reality? What drives the uniquely human impulse to seek knowledge of the whole? Finally, we delve into the book’s exploration of the concept of self and consider why our curiosity about reality sets us apart from other animals.Overall, this has been an illuminating and thought-provoking discussion.

Complement this discussion with “Robots, Artificial Life and Technology Imagined by the Ancients” with Adrienne Mayor available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2018/12/adrienne-mayor-bridging-the-gaps/And then listen to  “The Human Journey From Ape to Agriculture” with Professor Peter Bellwood available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/06/the-human-journey-from-ape-to-agriculture-with-professor-peter-bellwood/


“How Our Grasp of the Universe and Our Minds Changed Everything” with Professor Linda Zagzebski

As artificial intelligence takes on a growing role in decisions about education, jobs, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice, concerns about fairness have become urgent. Because AI systems are trained on data that reflect historical inequalities, they often reproduce or even amplify those disparities. In his book “AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” Professor Derek Leben draws on classic philosophical theories of justice—especially John Rawls’s work—to propose a framework for evaluating the fairness of AI systems. This framework offers a way to think systematically about algorithmic justice: how automated decisions can align with ethical principles of equality and fairness. The book examines the trade-offs among competing fairness metrics and shows that it is often impossible to satisfy them all at once. As a result, organizations must decide which definitions of fairness to prioritize, and regulators must determine how existing laws should apply to AI. In this episode of Bridging the Gaps, I speak with Derek Leben. 

Derek Leben is Professor of Business Ethics at the Tepper School of Business at Carnegie Mellon University. As founder of the consulting group Ethical Algorithms, he has worked with governments and companies to develop policies on fairness and benefit for AI and autonomous systems.

I begin our discussion by asking Derek what “AI” means in the context of his work and how fairness fits into that picture. From there, we explore why fairness matters as AI systems increasingly influence critical decisions about employment, education, housing, loans, healthcare, and criminal justice.

We discuss how historical inequalities in training data lead to biased outcomes, giving listeners a deeper understanding of the problem. While some view AI fairness as a purely technical issue that engineers can fix, the book argues that it is also a moral and political challenge—one that requires insights from philosophy and ethics. We then examine the difficulty of balancing multiple fairness metrics, which often cannot all be satisfied simultaneously, and discuss how organizations might prioritize among them. Derek explains his theory of algorithmic justice, inspired by John Rawls’s philosophy, and we unpack its key ideas.

Later, we touch on questions of urgency versus long-term reform, exploring the idea of longtermism, and discuss the tension between fairness and accuracy. Finally, we consider how businesses can balance commercial goals with their broader social responsibilities.

Overall, it is an informative and thought-provoking conversation about how we can make AI systems more just.

Complement this discussion with ““The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood” with Professor James Boyle” available at:  
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2025/04/the-line-ai-and-the-future-of-personhood-with-professor-james-boyle/

And then listen to “Reclaiming Human Intelligence and “How to Stay Smart in a Smart World” with Prof. Gerd Gigerenzer” available at: 
https://www.bridgingthegaps.ie/2023/04/reclaiming-human-intelligence-and-how-to-stay-smart-in-a-smart-world-with-prof-gerd-gigerenzer/


“AI Fairness: Designing Equal Opportunity Algorithms” with Professor Derek Leben

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“Design for a Better World: Meaningful, Sustainable, Humanity Centered” with Professor Don Norman

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