We’re talking with Dr. Susan Friedman about schedules Susan  is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: “How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals”.  She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org. It’s a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior.

Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty.  Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement.

In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules.  

In Part 2 we take a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules.  We consider how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule.  Susan talks about a move away from transactional training to training with assent.  She explains what that means and what it might look like for the learner.

We ended Part 1 with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule.  That’s where we pick up as we continue the conversation.



Episode 322 Susan Friedman Pt 2- Variablity And Assent

We’re talking with Dr Susan Friedman about schedules of reinforcement.  Susan  is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals).  She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org. It’s a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior.

Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty.  Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement.


In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules.  She ended with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule.  That’s where we began in Part 2.

In Part 2 we took a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules.  We considered how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule.  Susan talked about a moving away from transactional training to training with assent. 


Part 3 Susan helps us to understand schedules of co-variation.  She defines conjugate and synchronous schedules and gives some very practical examples, especially as it relates to husbandry procedures that may involve some discomfort.  Again she discusses what assent looks like and what it means when an animal says no.  What conditions must be present for a conjugate schedule to begin and what conditions mean that the training should stop?

Episode 323 Susan Friedman Part 3 Schedules of Co-Variation

This is the fourth in a five part series with Dr Susan Friedman.  The general topic is schedules of reinforcement.  Susan  is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals).  She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org It’s a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior.

Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty.  Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement.


In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules.  She ended with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule.  We carried that question over into Part 2.

In Part 2 we took a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules.  We considered how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule.  Susan talked about moving away from transactional training to training with assent. 


Part 3 Susan helped us to understand schedules of co-variation.  She defined conjugate and synchronous schedules and gave some very practical examples, especially as it relates to husbandry procedures that may involve some discomfort.  Again, she discussed what assent looks like and what it means when an animal says no.  What conditions must be present for a conjugate schedule to begin and what conditions mean that the training should stop?

Part 4 is very much about working in teams.  Especially when you are working on husbandry procedures that the animal may not be comfortable with, you need to notice and respond appropriately to the subtle signals an animal presents.  When one person is in charge of feeding and the other is handling the procedure, effective communication needs to be there.

At the Cheyenne Mountain zoo where Susan does a great deal of consulting work, the goal of each training session is not getting the procedure done.  It is having a willing animal for the next session.  

In this episode we talk about different magnitudes of reinforcers and the importance of making a distinction in the reinforcers that are available in order for a choice to be made.

Susan talks about the difference between empathy and compassion, and somehow that takes us to parenting styles and a question from Dominique about what to do when a baby cries.

Episode 324 Susan friedman Pt 4 Working in Teams

This is Part 5 of a five part series with Dr. Susan Friedman.  Susan  is a professor emeritus in the Department of Psychology at Utah State University. She is well known around the world for her very popular on-line course: How Behavior Works: Living & Learning With Animals).  She has co-authored chapters on behavior change in five veterinary texts, and her popular articles have been translated into 17 languages. She shares many of those articles on her web site: behavior works.org It’s a great resource for all of us who want to learn more about the natural science of behavior.

Susan is a member of the clicker expo faculty.  Her presentations at the March Clicker Expo prompted this conversation on schedules of reinforcement.


In Part 1 Susan reviewed with us the basics of fixed and variable schedules.  She ended with a question about how you get behavior to vary when you are using a continuous reinforcement schedule.  We carried that question over into Part 2.

In Part 2 we took a deeper dive into continuous reinforcement schedules.  We considered how you get behavior to vary without using a variable reinforcement schedule.  Susan talked about a moving away from transactional training to training with assent. 

Part 3 Susan helped us to understand schedules of co-variation.  She defined conjugate and synchronous schedules and gave some very practical examples, especially as it relates to husbandry procedures that may involve some discomfort.  Again, she discussed what assent looks like and what it means when an animal says no.  What conditions must be present for a conjugate schedule to begin and what conditions mean that the training should stop?

Part 4 was very much about working in teams.  Especially when you are working on husbandry procedures that the animal may not be comfortable with, you need to notice and respond appropriately to the subtle “no answers” an animal presents.  When one person is in charge of feeding and the other is handling the procedure, effective communication needs to be there.

At the Cheyenne Mountain zoo where Susan does a great deal of consulting work, the goal of each training session is not getting the procedure done.  It is having a willing animal for the next session.  

She talked about the difference between empathy and compassion, and somehow that took us to parenting styles and what to do when a baby cries.

Now in Part 5 of this conversation we’ll be talking about non-linear analysis.  Susan talks about the shift in focus from proximal to distant antecedents.  She defines what this means and shares several stories that really help us to understand these concepts.  When you’re faced with unwanted behavior an empowering question is to ask: if he did what was wanted, what would this individual be giving up?  In other words what other contingencies are reinforcing (or perhaps not reinforcing) the behavior such that, from the handler’s perspective, an unwanted behavior emerges. If we could make a change in these other contingencies, we might not have to deal with this unwanted behavior.  Susan’s stories make it very clear what this means and how to go about designing behavior change plans that take the distant antecedents into account.  My favorite example involves the penguins at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo.

Episode 325 Susan Friedman Pt 5 Non-Linear Analysis

This is Part 1 of a conversation with Muna Clough.  I’ve wanted to have Muna on the podcast for quite a while.  She’s a participant in my on-line clinics. She has an Irish draft cross named, Frank.  One of the first videos Muna sent me showed Frank rearing up at her and then moments later snaking his head around to bite at her legs.

In the more recent videos Muna has been teaching Frank lateral work.  The change in their relationship has been an absolute pleasure to watch.  All of the coaching has been through emails and the monthly coaching sessions.  I can make suggestions, but we have an ocean separating us.  It has been Muna who has done all the training.  She’s created the change that we’re seeing.  I wanted Muna to share with us the process she’s gone through to create this transformation. 

It’s all well and good for me to say clicker training works.  When you’re struggling with a horse, you can feel really trapped.  When you hear from someone like Muna whose horse started out with very similar behavior, her experiences can become the light that gets you to the end of the tunnel.

In this episode I begin by talking about the SABA Award that I was recently given at this year’s ABAI conference.  This is a very roundabout way to introduce Muna and Frank.  The connection between the two is loopy training.  Muna’s other horse Sandro was featured in the presentation I gave during the Awards ceremony.  So this seemed like the perfect time to invite Muna to join us.

She began by introducing Frank, a horse she bought as a two year old and then quickly discovered that she was in way over her head.  We’ll be focusing on the work Muna did to transform Frank from a fire-breathing dragon into delightful equine company.

Episode 328 The SABA Awards and Muna Clough Pt 1  Overfaced Handlersm4a

This week we are joined by two behavior analysts.  Dr. Claire St Peter is the chair of behavior analysis at the University of West Virginia.  She has been a frequent guest on this podcast.  We are also joined by Dr. Brennan Armshaw.  Claire is a horse person so she’s able to bridge the world between behavior analysis and horse training.  Dr. Armshaw has not yet been drawn into the world of horses, but his work is of great interest to me.  We have talked a lot about micro shaping in these podcasts and the importance of starting small.  Dr. Armshaw’s work makes us all seem like lumpers.  Using Surface electromyography, he has been training responses at the level of the firing of individual muscle fibers.  

His research brings new insights into how starting small can create the huge results we see.

Equiosity Episode 334 Dr Claire St Peter & Dr Brennan Armshaw Pt 1 Going Truly Micro

This week we are joined by two behavior analysts.  Dr. Claire St Peter is the chair of behavior analysis at the University of West Virginia.  She has been a frequent guest on this podcast.  We are also joined by Dr. Brennan Armshaw, who also teaches at the University of West Virginia.  Claire is a horse person so she’s able to bridge the world between behavior analysis and horse training.  Dr. Armshaw has not yet been drawn into the world of horses, but his work is of great interest to me.  

As we learned, in Part 1 Dr. Armshaw takes starting small to a whole new level of smallness.  He shapes at the level of individual muscle fibers firing which he measures with surface Electromyography.  Surface electromyography  records the electrical activity of targeted muscles.  Dr Armshaw has been using surface electromyography biofeedback to improve outcomes for patients undergoing physical therapy.  

This may seem a long way from horse training, but given the number of injuries horses people sustain plus all the injuries we treat our horses for, our conversation should get some wheels turning.  My interest is in what Dr. Armshaw has been discovering as he begins small.  With the horses we see over and over again the value of microshaping. In this episode Dr Armshaw helps us understand why starting small can produce such huge results.

Episode 335 Dr. Claire St Peter & Dr Brennan Armshaw pt 2 Going Truly Micro

In this three part series we’re joined by Dr. Susan Schneider is a behavior analyst.  She is the author of “The Science of Consequences” which many of you may have read.  Normally when we have behavior analysts as guests we talk about academic subjects such as schedules of reinforcement.  

In this case I wanted to talk to Susan about what horse people can do to help mitigate the climate change crisis.

For the past eight years Susan has made climate change her primary focus. 

Her work on climate change and sustainability includes outreach, community projects, organizing, academic and nonacademic publications, and extensive public speaking.  As Senior Scientist for the sustainability nonprofit Root Solutions, Dr Schneider helped design projects and coauthored two chapters in its 2022 guidebook, Making Shift Happen: Designing for Successful Environmental Behavior Change.  

Recent outreach includes a podcast for the Union of Concerned Scientists.  Schneider’s award-winning book for the public, The Science of Consequences, covers basic learning principles, their role in nature-nurture relations, and their broad range of applications, including sustainability.  

Schneider is on the faculty at Western Michigan University and serves on its Climate Change Working Group. She also serves on the Tools of Change Landmark Peer Review Panel for Climate Change, and on the board of the nonprofit Green Driving America.

Now if you are wondering why a podcast about all things equine is talking about climate change, here’s the connection.  Horses are grazing animals.  That means that collectively horse people own, manage, make decisions about a huge amount of land.  What we are learning is healthy pastures help to contribute to healthy horses.  

Healthy pastures also contribute to biodiversity.  Healthy pastures come from healthy soils.  Improved soil quality absorbs more water which helps to reduce flooding.  Healthy soils also sequesters carbon.  

So horse people can help in the climate change crisis through the way we manage our land.  It’s one of those win-win-win situations.  Healthier pastures are good for our horses which is good for us and it’s also good for the planet.

I wanted to explore three major topics with Dr. Schneider.  The first is where are we now in terms of climate change?  Why should we care?  The second is what can we do to make a difference.  And the third area is how can we talk to others without shutting them down and driving them away?  There are lessons to be learned here not just about how do we talk about climate change, but how do we talk about positive reinforcement training when we’re surrounded by command-based trainers.

In part 1 I set the stage for this conversation and then Dr. Schneider took us to some hopeful solutions that are available to all of us.

Episode 338 Dr Susan Schneider Pt 1 Horses Climate Change & Making a Difference

This is Part 2 of a three part conversation with Dr. Susan Schneider.  Dr.Schneider is the author of “The Science of Consequences”. For the past eight years Susan has made climate change her primary focus. 

Her work on climate change and sustainability includes outreach, community projects, organizing, academic and nonacademic publications, and extensive public speaking.  As Senior Scientist for the sustainability nonprofit Root Solutions, Dr Schneider helped design projects and coauthored two chapters in its 2022 guidebook, Making Shift Happen: Designing for Successful Environmental Behavior Change.  

Recent outreach includes a podcast for the Union of Concerned Scientists.  Schneider’s award-winning book for the public, The Science of Consequences, covers basic learning principles, their role in nature-nurture relations, and their broad range of applications, including sustainability.  

Schneider is on the faculty at Western Michigan University and serves on its Climate Change Working Group. She also serves on the Tools of Change Landmark Peer Review Panel for Climate Change, and on the board of the nonprofit Green Driving America.

Now if you are wondering why a podcast about all things equine is talking about climate change, here’s the connection.  Horses are grazing animals.  That means that collectively horse people own, manage, make decisions about a huge amount of land.  What we are learning is healthy pastures help to contribute to healthy horses.  

Healthy pastures also contribute to biodiversity.  Healthy pastures come from healthy soils.  Improved soil quality absorbs more water which helps to reduce flooding.  Healthy soils also sequesters carbon.  

So horse people can help in the climate change crisis through the way we manage our land.  It’s one of those win-win-win situations.  Healthier pastures are good for our horses which is good for us and it’s also good for the planet.

I wanted to explore three major topics with Dr. Schneider.  The first is where are we now in terms of climate change?  Why should we care?  The second is what can we do to make a difference.  And the third area is how can we talk to others without shutting them down and driving them away?  There are lessons to be learned here not just about how do we talk about climate change, but how do we talk about positive reinforcement training when we’re surrounded 

Episode 339 Dr Susan Schneider Pt 2 Horses Climate Change & Making a Difference

This is Part 3 of a three part conversation with Dr. Susan Schneider.  Dr.Schneider is the author of “The Science of Consequences”. For the past eight years Dr, Schneider has made climate change her primary focus. 

Dr. Schneider is on the faculty at Western Michigan University and serves on its Climate Change Working Group. She also serves on the Tools of Change Landmark Peer Review Panel for Climate Change, and on the board of the nonprofit Green Driving America.

Now if you are wondering why a podcast about all things equine is talking about climate change, here’s the connection.  Horses are grazing animals.  That means that collectively horse people own, manage, make decisions about a huge amount of land.  What we are learning is healthy pastures help to contribute to healthy horses.  

Healthy pastures also contribute to biodiversity.  Healthy pastures come from healthy soils.  Improved soil quality absorbs more water which helps to reduce flooding.  Healthy soils also sequesters carbon.  

So horse people can help in the climate change crisis through the way we manage our land.  It’s one of those win-win-win situations.  Healthier pastures are good for our horses which is good for us and it’s also good for the planet.

I wanted to explore three major topics with Dr. Schneider.  The first is where are we now in terms of climate change?  Why should we care?  The second is what can we do to make a difference.  And the third area is how can we talk to others without shutting them down and driving them away?  There are lessons to be learned here not just about how do we talk about climate change, but how do we talk about positive reinforcement training when we’re surrounded by command-based trainers.

In the previous episode we looked at alternatives that don’t force people to make the kind of life style choices that mean going without.  For example, we don’t have to give up driving. We can drive an electric vehicle instead of a fossil fuel car.  Choosing the alternative to a gas powered engine means we still get to drive.

In this episode we consider actions which horse people in particular are in a great position to take as we consider changes to the decisions we make about the way we manage our pastures.  Even if you board and the only land you manage is the lawn around your house, you can take actions that collectively make a difference.

Episode 340 Dr. Susan Schneider Pt 3 What We Gain When We Take Action

Equiosity is the podcast about all things equine with a special emphasis on the horse-human bond.

New tracks tagged #Behavior Analysis