Join Dave Prior as he sits down with Ross Beurmann, author of "From Theater to Flow: Rebuilding the System Behind Agility." In this episode, they delve into the challenges of agile transformations, the concept of "Agile Theater," and the importance of focusing on the middle management to drive meaningful change. Ross shares insights from his book and discusses the need for organizations to rethink their approach to agility.

Key Topics:
The pitfalls of "Agile Theater" and how to avoid them 
The role of middle management in successful transformations 
Ross's unique approach to integrating governance and agility 
Real-world examples and lessons learned from Ross's consulting experience


Links:
Ross's Book on Amazon https://tinyurl.com/37neasdm
Ross's Website https://rossbeurmann.com
Connect with Ross on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rossbeurmann/

Links from the intro:
The Agile Network https://theagilenetwork.com/
Agile 2025 https://agilealliance.org/agile2025/
Dave and Stuarts Talk at Agile 2025: Career Power-Ups: Surviving Through Uncertainty and Change https://tinyurl.com/2s4zhzts
Dave and Stuart’s Book: “No One Is Coming to Save You” https://leanpub.com/surfthechaos

From Theater to Flow with Ross Beurmann

In this episode, Dave interviews Dr. Michael Gillespie about his book 'Distancing - How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions', which explores psychological distancing as a tool for better decision-making. They discuss the importance of stepping outside one's own perspective to gain clarity, the different types of distancing (self, time, and space), and practical applications of these techniques. The conversation also touches on the role of journaling, the significance of construal level theory, and how mindfulness can complement these strategies. Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes the need for individuals to pause and reflect in order to make more informed decisions.

Takeaways
	•	Psychological distancing helps individuals see situations more clearly.
	•	Mindfulness is beneficial, but not always sufficient for immediate decision-making.
	•	There are three primary types of distancing: self, time, and space.
	•	Journaling in the third person can enhance self-awareness and clarity.
	•	Construal level theory explains the difference between high-level abstract thinking and low-level concrete thinking.
	•	Taking a pause is crucial in emotionally charged situations.
	•	Practicing distancing techniques can lead to better emotional regulation.
	•	Being a 'fly on the wall' can provide valuable perspective in difficult moments.
	•	It's important to normalize the practice of pausing in group settings.
	•	The ultimate goal is to make better decisions and improve overall well-being.


LINKS

Distancing - How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions by L. David Marquet and Michael A. Gillespie https://tinyurl.com/wtadnumb

Contacting Michael Gillespie
University of South Florida: https://tinyurl.com/yds54cbe
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-gillespie-78661a4/

Contacting L. David Marquet
Web: https://davidmarquet.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmarquet/
Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/4ezbp4a9

Distancing - How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions with Dr. Michael Gillespie

In this conversation, David Marquet shares his transformative leadership journey from commanding the Santa Fe submarine, one of the worst performers in the fleet, to implementing a culture of empowerment and accountability. He discusses the importance of shifting from a language of permission to a language of intent, encouraging leaders to empower their teams to think critically and make decisions. Marquet emphasizes the significance of mindset, distance, and self-coaching in effective decision-making, and how visualizing problems can lead to better solutions. The discussion culminates in practical advice for creating a culture of accountability and fostering a proactive mindset within teams.


Takeaways

Leadership is about inspiring teams, not just giving orders.
The language of permission can stifle innovation and accountability.
Empower your team to think critically and make decisions.
Mindset and distance are crucial for effective decision-making.
Coaching yourself can lead to better outcomes.
Visualizing problems helps in understanding and solving them.
Creating a culture of accountability is essential for success.
Encourage a language of intent over a language of permission.
Fresh perspectives can lead to innovative solutions.
Transformational leadership requires a shift in mindset and language.

LINKS

Distancing - How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions by L. David Marquet and Michael A. Gillespie https://tinyurl.com/wtadnumb

You can check out the interview with David’s co-author, Michael Gillespie, here: https://on.soundcloud.com/zb166tQR3Ce8gp0tHd

Contacting L. David Marquet
Web: https://davidmarquet.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmarquet/
Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/4ezbp4a9

Contacting Michael Gillespie
University of South Florida: https://tinyurl.com/yds54cbe
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-gillespie-78661a4/



David Marquet  - Distancing - How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions

In this engaging conversation, Johanna Rothman takes over Dave Prior's podcast to discuss the journey of writing their new book with Stu Young. They explore themes of self-responsibility, emotional intelligence, and the importance of visual thinking in navigating complexity. The authors share their personal experiences and insights on collaboration, the writing process, and the necessity of embracing change in both personal and professional lives. They emphasize the significance of authenticity and continuous improvement as key elements in achieving success and fulfillment.

Takeaways
	•	The book was inspired by a drunken conversation on a ship.
	•	Self-responsibility is crucial; no one will save you.
	•	Emotional intelligence is a key skill for success.
	•	Personal Kanban helps in organizing tasks effectively.
	•	PDSA (Plan, Do, Study, Adjust) is essential for personal growth.
	•	Visual thinking aids in problem-solving and idea generation.
	•	Careers are not linear; adaptability is vital.
	•	Change is inevitable; embrace it rather than resist.
	•	Collaboration enhances the writing process and creativity.
	•	Authenticity and imperfection are strengths, not weaknesses.

Links from the Interview:
Johanna Rothman
Web: http://www.jrothman.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johannarothman/

Stuart Young
Web: https://www.stuartyoung.uk/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-young-vis/

Dave Prior
Web: https://linktr.ee/mrsungo
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrsungo/
Newsletter Sign Up: https://tinyurl.com/3f5aevts

No One Is Coming to Save You 
https://leanpub.com/surfthechaos

The Agile Network September Event (24 hours) - Expert's Showcase
Begins 9/7 at 8 AM Eastern
https://theagilenetwork.com/group/cca3b7ef-4fb3-42a7-8f97-59ab04a7b2e5/profile

Lean Coffee with Dave, Anu Smalley, Bob Galen, and Angela Johnson
9/7 at 2 PM Eastern
https://theagilenetwork.com/event/6ba65f21-fef8-4f48-8fb5-9b769c1b1b96/ROUND_TABLE

Lean DC - Agile Meetup - No One is Coming to Save You 
10/8 at 12 PM Eastern
https://www.meetup.com/dc-lean-agile/events/310850331/?eventOrigin=group_events_list

Chapters
02:28 The Backstory of the Book
08:02 The Book's Premise: No One is Coming to Save You
13:59 Emotional Intelligence and Self-Awareness
17:24 Understanding PDSA vs. PDCA
18:41 The Importance of Self-Reflection
20:06 Getting Your Shit Together: Personal Kanban and PDSA
20:37 Visual Thinking in Agile Coaching
24:35 Navigating Non-Linear Career Paths
26:22 Embracing Change in Careers
32:251 Collaborative Writing and Finishing Projects
37:45 Dealing with Change and Relationships
41:12 The Value of Time and Self-Awareness

Johanna Rothman DPM Take Over - No One Is Coming to Save You

(This podcast was originally recorded as a video episode. If you'd like to see that version: https://youtu.be/YSDNeAdyZiw)

In this conversation, Dave Prior and Johnu Marattil discuss the challenges of job applications, particularly the importance of tailoring resumes for each position. Johnu shares his personal journey of creating a tool, WahResume, to automate and enhance the job application process. They delve into the significance of understanding ATS filters, common mistakes applicants make, and strategies for effectively showcasing skills and experiences. The discussion also covers the role of AI in improving resumes and the necessity of preparing for interviews in today's competitive job market.


Takeaways

	•	Tailoring your resume for each job application is essential.
	•	Understanding ATS filters can significantly improve your chances of getting noticed.
	•	Automating the resume creation process can save time and effort.
	•	Highlighting skills and achievements is crucial for standing out.
	•	Using keywords from job descriptions in your cover letter can enhance your application.
	•	Applying for multiple roles increases your chances of getting shortlisted.
	•	A simple and lightweight resume format is often more effective.
	•	Practicing interviews can help build confidence and improve performance.
	•	The goal of job applications has shifted to getting interviews rather than just landing jobs.
	•	WahResume is a tool designed to streamline the job application process. 

Links:
WahResume: https://www.wahresume.com/
(In the interview, Johnu shares a promo code that will give you a free month of full access - but you’ll need to listen to the recording to find out what it is.)
 
Johnu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnumarattil/

Chapters

00:20 Introduction to Job Application Challenges
03:19 The Importance of Tailoring Resumes
06:11 Automating the Job Application Process
09:15 Using AI to Enhance Resumes
11:42 Common Mistakes in Job Applications
14:28 Navigating the Job Market Today
17:23 Demonstrating the Resume Tool
20:14 Improving Resume Scores with Keywords
24:59 Navigating Job Descriptions and Resumes
27:13 Tailoring Resumes for Experience
28:55 The Importance of Relevant Skills
30:10 Optimizing Resume Formats for ATS
33:04 Understanding ATS Parsing Challenges
37:52 Simplifying Resume Formats
39:50 Job Application Strategies and Tips
43:48 Leveraging Tools for Job Seekers


Getting Your Resume Past ATS with Wahresume Featuring Johnu Marattil

In this conversation, Dave Prior speaks with Ashley Lucio about her extensive experience in communications, particularly focusing on the differences between internal communications and marketing. They discuss the challenges organizations face in deploying AI technologies and the importance of having communication professionals involved in these processes. Ashley emphasizes the need for effective communication strategies to manage organizational change and the potential pitfalls of neglecting this aspect. The conversation also touches on the evolving role of AI in communications and the necessity for a balanced approach that leverages technology while maintaining human insight.

Sign up for my Newsletter http://eepurl.com/iB2jUI

Takeaways
	•	Ashley Lucio has a diverse background in communications, marketing, and internal communications.
	•	Internal communications focus on employee engagement and understanding sentiment, distinct from marketing and PR.
	•	Effective communication is crucial during organizational changes, especially with AI deployment.
	•	Leadership plays a significant role in shaping communication strategies within organizations.
	•	Cognitive dissonance can arise when company values do not align with employee experiences.
	•	AI deployment should involve communication professionals to foresee potential issues.
	•	Organizations often rush AI implementations without proper planning or communication.
	•	The role of communications in project management is often undervalued but essential for success.
	•	AI can enhance efficiency in communications but should not replace human insight.
	•	The future of communications will require a balance between technology and human creativity.

Chapters
03:11 Introduction and Background
05:40 The Role of Communications in Organizations
09:00 Internal vs External Communications
12:26 The Impact of AI on Organizational Messaging
17:36 The Need for Communication Professionals in Change Management
22:23 The Importance of Holistic Communication Strategies
24:02 The Role of Data in AI Development
24:45 Communication Strategies in AI Implementation
25:50 Damage Control in AI Adoption
26:35 Pilot Programs and Scaling AI Solutions
28:34 The Value of Project Management and Communication
29:44 Metrics of Success in Internal Communications
30:43 The Importance of Intentional Messaging
32:48 AI's Impact on Communication Roles
34:29 The Future of AI in Creative Fields
36:14 Using AI as a Tool, Not a Replacement

Contacting Ashley
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/alucio

Other Links:
The Agile Network - Resilient: Adapt and Thrive (10/7- 10/8): 
https://tinyurl.com/ynj5wjjm

Productivity Survival with Dave Prior and Mark Kilby  
https://tinyurl.com/3zbdst52 (Use DavesDeep75 for a special discounted price)

DC Lean Agile Meetup - No One Is Coming to Save You with Dave Prior (10/8 12 PM Eastern):
https://www.meetup.com/dc-lean-agile/events/310850331/

You Need Comms More Than You Think with Ashley Lucio

Dennis Stevens joins drunkenpm for a deep dive into the challenges faced by middle management in organizational change. Dennis argues that Agile and transformation efforts often fail because they treat middle managers as a roadblock, when in fact, these managers are simply victims of a badly designed system. The core idea is that companies shouldn't try to eliminate these roles but must instead design specific organizational "containers" and routines that force middle managers to leverage human nature (like self-interest and competition) to drive innovation. The goal is to shift strategy from a static plan to a dynamic process that lives in the interactions between people, ensuring all the work being done is strategically aligned, measurable, and ultimately successful.

Key Takeaways
Middle Management is the Constraint: Organizational change, adaptability, and innovation will either happen or stall at the middle management level.

Systemic Failure: Middle managers are often marginalized as the "stepchild" and are expected to manage tasks and activities instead of creating the conditions necessary for teams to achieve outcomes.

Strategy is Dynamic: Strategy doesn't happen when a leader speaks; it becomes real when people start talking to each other and applying it, which requires designing routines that create safety for delegation.

Embrace Human Nature: Successful organizational design must leverage human nature, where competitiveness is the fuel, rather than relying on idealistic notions of "no ego, total alignment".

Conditions Over Practices: The success of Agile is due to the environment and conditions created for the teams, not the specific practices (like stand-ups or language). A key function of management is to consciously create those conditions.

Constraints Drive Innovation: Setting clear goals and enforcing constraints and consequences within the designed container will drive innovation by forcing teams to be efficient and reinvent, as opposed to operating without pressure.


Key Moments
0:02:24 The Core Thesis: Stevens introduces the central argument: "If you're trying to change how an organization runs, middle management is where it will either happen or stall."
0:03:41 The Problem Defined: Stevens uses the "stepchild" analogy to describe the plight of middle managers: having "fake power," lacking strategy, and being blamed for a system that was not designed to support them.
0:08:50 The Root Cause: Stevens identifies the problem: it's not a failure of management but a failure of the organization to deeply understand the conditions necessary for teams to innovate coherently in a complex system.
0:15:26 The Anti-Commune Stance: Stevens argues against the idealistic view of self-organization, stating that to succeed at scale, a system must be built where competitiveness is the fuel, rather than expecting people "to not be people."
0:20:08 The Glue of Strategy: Stevens defines where strategy truly exists: "Strategy becomes real when people start talking to each other." He stresses the need to build routines that create safety for delegation.
0:30:46 Constraints & Innovation: Stevens explains that constraints drive innovation by forcing efficiency, while a lack of constraints leads to inefficiency and a lack of pressure to reinvent.

Dennis's Article: Innovation By Design https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/innovation-design-orgwright-qeipe/?trackingId=6eh7kgcyKabru1Cdv4%2BERg%3D%3D

Links from the Intro:
Productivity Survival: https://www.tickettailor.com/events/markkilby/1905697
No One is Coming to Save You
	Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/yhdk785j	
	Leanpub: https://leanpub.com/surfthechaos

Contacting Dennis
	LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennisstevens/
	OrgWright: https://www.orgwright.com/
	The Agile Network: https://tinyurl.com/2tywk29e


Contacting Dave
	LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrsungo/
	Linktree: https://linktr.ee/mrsungo 
	The Agile Network: https://tinyurl.com/y3rhnnxp



Making the Case for Middle Management with Dennis Stevens

This interview is also available via video form here: https://youtu.be/vkNbgwcolIM

If you’ve never been on a podcast before, the whole idea of it can be intimidating. What if you say the wrong thing? Or say “Um… to your point” too many times. EVERYONE will judge you. Your career will be over. It will be the end of days….

Except none of that will happen. But just to put your mind at ease, Jack Hrcsko and I have put together a podcast with tips to help you be an excellent podcast guest. Between the two of us we’ve done thousands of podcast interviews. As hosts, we want to help you shine, and we want to create compelling content that will be valuable to he listeners. Selfishly, we also want help you make our jobs as hosts and editors a little easier.

Whether you are about to do your very first interview or you just want to make sure you are set up for success, there are tips in here that will help you level up your podcast guestiness. 

Jay’s Contact Info:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhrcsko/
Agile Uprising: https://www.agileuprising.com
Agile Uprising Podcast: https://agileuprising.libsyn.com

Chapters

00:18 Introduction to Podcasting and Guest Preparation
03:17 Effective Interview Preparation Strategies
06:20 Creating a Comfortable Interview Environment
09:05 Technical Setup for Podcast Interviews
12:11 Speaking Naturally and Avoiding Overthinking
15:16 Navigating the Interview Dynamics
18:10 The Role of Alcohol and Comfort in Interviews
24:32 Crafting Engaging Interviews
27:22 Navigating Guest Comfort and Communication
29:16 Embarrassing Moments in Podcasting
32:07 Worst Interview Experiences
35:49 Memorable Guests and Conversations
38:31 Utilizing Technology for Better Interviews
39:26 Connecting with Jay Hrcsko
40:26 Exploring Management Concepts
43:37 The Future of Work and Podcasting

How to be a Podcast Guest with Jay Hrcsko

In this conversation, Dave Prior and Hugo Bowne-Anderson discuss the evolving landscape of AI and data science, focusing on the role of AI agents in solving business problems. Hugo shares insights on how to effectively implement AI solutions, the importance of understanding the underlying data, and the need for continuous improvement in AI systems. They also touch on the skills necessary for navigating the AI landscape, the value of collaboration between technical and non-technical teams, and the importance of assessing the value of AI projects. Hugo concludes by offering a course on building AI applications, emphasizing the iterative nature of AI development.

Takeaways

 - Hugo emphasizes the importance of data in AI applications.
 - AI agents can automate tasks but require human oversight.
 - Understanding the problem is crucial before implementing AI solutions.
 - Prompt engineering remains a valuable skill alongside learning about agents.
 - Consultants should educate clients on practical AI applications.
 - AI systems should be built incrementally and iteratively.
 - Value assessment in AI projects should focus on efficiency and cost savings.
 - Continuous improvement is essential for AI systems to remain effective.
 - Experimentation with AI tools can lead to innovative solutions.
 - Collaboration between technical and non-technical teams is vital for successful AI implementation.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Data and AI Literacy
06:14 Understanding AI Agents vs. LLMs
09:18 The Role of Agents in Business Solutions
12:21 Navigating the Future of AI and Agents
15:24 Consulting and Client Education in AI
18:37 Building Incremental AI Solutions
21:29 The Future of AI Coding and Debugging
24:32 Prototyping with AI: Challenges and Solutions
25:32 Leveraging AI for User Insights and Competitive Analysis
27:29 Understanding Value in AI Development
32:05 The Role of Product Managers in AI Integration
33:00 AI as an Instrument: The Human Element
35:33 Getting Started with AI: Practical Steps for Teams
38:51 Building AI Applications: Course Overview and Insights

Links from the Podcast:

Stop Building AI Agents - Here’s what you should build instead (Article) https://www.decodingai.com/p/stop-building-ai-agents
Anthropic https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/multi-agent-research-system
The Colgate Study https://www.pymc-labs.com/blog-posts/AI-based-Customer-Research

Hugo’s Course (Starts November 3, 2025)
Building AI Applications for Data Scientists and Software Engineers (with a 25% discount)
https://maven.com/hugo-stefan/building-ai-apps-ds-and-swe-from-first-principles?promoCode=drunkenpm
(You can use the discount code drunkenpm to get 25% off)

How To Be A Podcast Guest with Jay Hrcsko https://youtu.be/vkNbgwcolIM

Contacting Hugo
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/hugo-bowne-anderson-045939a5/
Substack https://hugobowne.substack.com/

Contacting Dave
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/mrsungo
Dave’s Classes: https://www.eventbrite.com/cc/dave-prior-classes-4758623

Navigating AI - Making Sense of Agents and When To Use Them with Hugo Bowne-Anderson

In this engaging conversation, Dave Prior and Lonnie Weaver-Johnson delve into the complexities of giving and receiving feedback. They explore personal experiences, the emotional challenges associated with feedback, and practical strategies for improving feedback dynamics. Lonnie shares her insights on the importance of mindset, recognizing triggers, and the four Rs of feedback: recognize, receive, react, and respond. The discussion emphasizes the value of self-awareness and the need for constructive communication in both personal and professional settings.


Takeaways

 - Feedback can be life-changing if handled positively.
 - Many people struggle with receiving positive feedback.
 - It's crucial to learn how to accept feedback in various settings.
 - Feedback givers can help receivers by being mindful of their delivery.
 - The receiver ultimately controls how they handle feedback.
 - Compartmentalizing feedback can help in processing it effectively.
 - Recognizing triggers can aid in managing emotional responses to feedback.
 - Practicing self-talk can help combat negative internal feedback.
 - It's okay to ask for time to process feedback before responding.
 - Showing gratitude for feedback, even if it's hard to hear, can be beneficial.


Chapters

02:49 Introduction to Feedback Dynamics
05:35 The Importance of Receiving Feedback
8:26 Navigating Negative Feedback
11:40 Personal Stories and Lessons Learned
13:54 Triggers and Reactions to Feedback
16:38 The Four Rs of Feedback
19:42 Responding to Feedback Effectively
22:29 Self-Feedback and Positive Reinforcement


Links
Lonnie’s Session at 2025 PMI Global Summit
Beyond Going Through the Motions: Create Retrospectives That Lead To Change
https://pmiglobalsummit.gcs-web.com/program/agenda#sess61853976

Dave and Stuart’s Book
No One Is Coming to Save You: Power-ups to help surf the chaos
- Amazon: https://tinyurl.com/2765ztum
- Leanpub: https://leanpub.com/surfthechaos

Dave’s classes (CSM, CSPO, A-CSPO, PMP, PMI-ACP)
https://www.eventbrite.com/cc/dave-prior-classes-4758623

Contacting Lonnie
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lonnieweaverjohnson/
Web: https://www.lonniewj.com/

Recieving the Gift of Feedback with Lonnie Weaver-Johnson

A podcast about Agile and Project Management

New tracks tagged #drunkenpm