Bob Froehlich, owner of the Kane County (Illinois) Cougars minor league ball club and a veteran observer of macro and markets, discusses with co-hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau, among other ideas, his favorable 12-to-18-month outlook for global growth and stocks (14:01, 24:32), the place for commodities in investor portfolios (22:00) and the re-imagining of corporations (31:02) as they evolve for hybrid home-office work environments and face the need to take stands on pressing societal issues.

The upbeat outlook for growth and equities comes with at least one caveat. While losing no sleep over what the Federal Reserve might or might not do (18:35), Dr. Froehlich keeps a weather eye for inflation (14:51). Rising prices, he says, form “a headwind that we really have to pay very, very close attention to because that changes the dynamics quickly for any long-term equity investor.”
 
As do all Sherman Show guests, Dr. Bob, as he is known especially among business executives and financial professionals in the Chicago metropolitan area, shares how he came to his career in markets and investing, a career preceded early in his adulthood with summer jobs working in Pennsylvania’s steel mills and two years playing center field for the Independent Minor League North Side Mets in the Greater Pittsburgh Semi-Pro Federation Baseball League.
 
The Kane County Cougars owner and CEO also talks about the business of pro baseball with Jeff Sherman, one of the San Francisco Giants faithful and, in his varsity days in Bakersfield, California, catcher for the South High Rebels. “I’ve always been a numbers guy,” Dr. Bob recalls (1:42). “So it was a natural transition for me to go from Wall Street to baseball. It’s just the type of type of numbers I focused on were way different. Instead of worrying about GDP and inflation, now I worry about attendance and how may beers are being sold on a given day. But it’s still a numbers game.”

The Sherman Show

S11 E7: Dr. Bob on “Woking Up” Corporations, Global Growth and a Bit of Baseball

DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Sam Lau welcome Bitwise Chief Investment Officer Matt Hougan for a deep dive into crypto investing. Messrs. Sherman, Lau and Hougan discuss why indexing is good in the crypto world (6:28), why crypto deserves a place in the portfolio (10:16), the impact of central bank digital currency on this emerging space (15:00) and what makes a crypto asset high quality (22:44), among other topics. The group also talks about the role of regulation in the crypto market (16:27), which Mr. Hougan sees as crucial to protect the growing industry from bad actors and bad press. “I think crypto needs some level of regulation to set it free,” he says. Other subjects covered include why bigger is better in crypto (7:35) and the crush of celebrity/meme coins (20:48). In addition, Messrs. Sherman and Lau (and Mama Lau in spirit) take up Mr. Hougan on his offer to explain cryptocurrency in three minutes, and he does so with 10 seconds to spare (30:27 – 33:17). This episode was recorded on Sept. 15, 2021.

S11 E11: Matt Hougan on Minor League Origins, the Present and Future of Crypto Currency

DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Sam Lau welcome Jared Dillian, editor of The Daily Dirtnap market newsletter, investment strategist at Mauldin Economics, podcaster (Be Smart) and DJ (DJ Stochastic), for Mr. Dillian’s take on today’s markets and his thoughts on asset allocation. Messrs. Sherman, Lau and Dillian get into investor sentiment on inflation and market volatility (6:38), the risk tolerance of retail traders (13:34), what a Republican Congress in 2022 could mean for the economy (20:39) and where risk-averse investors should tread lightly (27:45), among other topics. In regard to austerity policies and cutting the budget deficit (23:57), Mr. Dillian notes, “The political will to reduce the deficit in the ’80s and ’90s was there. Now, nobody cares.” Other subjects include Mr. Dillian’s Theory of Constraints in relation to ESG investment (30:22) and The Awesome Portfolio, a 20% allotment each to stocks, bonds, cash, gold and real estate (33:11). This episode was recorded Dec. 9, 2021.

S11 E14: Jared Dillian on Investor Sentiment, Mkt Volatility, Constraints Theory & Awesome Portfolio

Macroeconomist Zoltan Pozsar, a Managing Director in the Investment Strategy and Research department at Credit Suisse, discusses with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau, among other topics, the possibilities of “ugly versus beautiful” quantitative tightening by the Federal Reserve (13:18); his expectation of scant demand for Treasuries by FX hedge buyers, foreign central banks and domestic bank portfolios once those assets start rolling off the Fed’s balance sheet (15:44); a vulnerability of the U.S. banking system to mobile retail deposits (19:36) and commodity price spikes (21:48); and non-U.S. central banks diversifying part of their forex reserves away from the dollar (36:20). The podcast was recorded April 25, 2022.

In addition to his economic training in academia and market experience on Wall Street, Mr. Pozsar brings deep experience from within the financial and monetary system itself. Before joining Credit Suisse in 2015, he served as a senior adviser to the U.S. Treasury Department, focusing on matters of financial innovation. As part of the response to the global financial crisis and contributions to the resulting policy debate, in August 2008 he joined the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. There he oversaw market intelligence for securitized credit markets and served as point person on market developments for senior Federal Reserve, Treasury and White House officials. He also worked at the International Monetary Fund where he took part in framing the IMF’s position on shadow banking.

TSS S12 E8: Mapping Flows, Tracing Bottlenecks in Liquidity with Zoltan Pozsar

S12 E8: Mapping Flows, Tracing Bottlenecks in Liquidity with Zoltan Pozsar

Michael Imerman, financial data scientist and associate professor of finance at Claremont Graduate University, appears May 9, 2022, on The Sherman Show as he winds down a sabbatical as a visiting scholar to the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. At the San Francisco Fed, he has been advising a dedicated fintech group at the bank of innovations in this field and emerging risks. (Standard disclaimer: Dr. Imerman notes the views and opinions he shares here are his own and do not necessarily reflect the San Francisco Fed or the Federal Reserve system.) 
Starting his conversation with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau (2:51), Dr. Imerman defines fintech as “the collision of emerging technologies and financial services.” While financial services providers have been using information technologies for decades, something different has been occurring over the past 10-15 years. “We’ve had tech companies, both big tech – the Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple – as well as start-ups moving into this space,” he says. “These are companies that historically have had nothing to do with financial services. Over the past 10 years, they’ve moved into the space that has been traditionally occupied by the incumbents: banks, asset managers, insurance companies.” 
Among other developments, Dr. Imerman discusses the “shakeup” posed by “neobanks and challenger banks” (13:05), fintech lending (14:17) and the financial “incumbents catching up” with the fintech challengers (16:33). Dr. Imerman stresses importance of regulatory oversight to ensure consumer protection and manage systemic risk at a time when fintech is accelerating and democratizing accessibility to financial services (20:29). Messrs. Imerman, Sherman and Lau also discuss central bank digital currencies (31:32) and what excites Imerman most about the future of financial tech innovation: quantum computing (36:15).

TSS S12 E9: Financial Data Scientist Michael Imerman on the Risks and Opportunities of Fintech

S12 E9: Financial Data Scientist Michael Imerman on the Risks and Opportunities of Fintech

Ashok Varadhan, Global Co-Head of the Global Markets Division, Goldman Sachs appears Oct. 17, 2022, on The Sherman Show with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau. After discussing his career in markets (2:48), which began with the last protracted Federal Reserve tightening campaign (1994-1995), Mr. Varadhan assesses the current Fed’s monetary management (9:20) and shares his leading indicators for the economy (14:36). Among further topics, Messrs. Varadhan, Sherman and Lau discuss the state of credit markets (17:44), the rising cost of leverage due to quantitative tightening (22:02), the dominance of the U.S. dollar (29:54) and the possibility that equities can remain expensive and become more expensive (35:56).

TSS Episode 127: Goldman Sachs’ Ashok Varadhan on Global Markets in a De-Leveraging World

Charles Payne, financial author, Fox Business Network anchor and principal of independent research firm Wall Street Strategies, discusses with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau his career, the power of financial literacy to change people’s lives, his approach to investing, and his outlook for the economy and markets. This podcast was recorded Jan. 4, 2023.

Mr. Payne, host of Making Money With Charles Payne on FBN, starts (0:21) with his “two childhoods,” the first an idyllic experience in a military family, the second in a penniless household after the breakup of his parents. “I was sort of thrust at 12 years old into a position of having to help” the household finances. Growing up in Harlem with his mother and two younger brothers, he self-educated himself about investing to the point where he bought his first mutual fund at 17 and his first stock, a successful investment in telecom MCI, at 18.

After college and a tour in the United States Air Force, including a posting on a nuclear missile base (5:52), Mr. Payne found work in the stock brokerage industry (9:21). But in time, his passion for research and his disillusion (12:13) with the sales-driven focus of the industry led him to found Wall Street Strategies in 1991. Mr. Payne describes the buildup of his firm (13:42), preparing research at night and working as his own salesman by day until the business took off, allowing him to hire staff and open an office on Wall Street.

Mr. Payne describes his guest appearance on CNBC (14:26), a journey that included a moving encounter with former professional boxer Mike Tyson, his growing presence as a market commentator on the networks and the development of his on-air style. He eventually was approached by the then-fledgling FBN. After an initial struggle, he made his regular weekday program into a ratings success.

With Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau, among further topics, Mr. Payne stresses (21:25) the importance of people learning to actively invest over their lifetime and not passively turning their money over to fee-collecting financial professionals. He also discusses the art of interviewing on television and how he chooses guests (25:09).

Turning to markets, among other topics, Mr. Payne discusses his contrarian approach to investing (36:25), grounded on fundamental analysis but also including technical and behavioral work. He criticizes the Federal Reserve’s focus on the dubious metric of “excess reserves” (40:20), the investment opportunities he sees in China (42:12) and his expectation that the Fed will be compelled to cut rates sooner than the central bank expects (47:08).

TSS Episode 131: Charles Payne on His Unique Career, Informed Investors and a Wayward Fed

DoubleLine Portfolio Manager Jeff Mayberry returns as a guest to share his market and macro outlooks for 2023 with DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau. Noting Mr. Mayberry gave his outlooks a year ago for 2022, Mr. Sherman reviews Mayberry’s score card (1:15) for the year gone by. Among those 2022 calls, one of Mr. Mayberry’s most contrarian forecasts (4:28), which proved to be true, was the Federal Reserve would tighten a lot without weakening the labor market. This episode was recorded Jan. 19, 2023.

Turning to the future, the discussion goes into Mr. Mayberry’s expectations for the Fed’s rate-hiking campaign (4:45). Mr. Sherman (6:51) asks about the divergence between market pricing and the Fed’s forward guidance on the fed funds rate, which leads to Mr. Mayberry sorting out the market mechanism as a “probability machine.” The discussion eventually takes up the idea (13:36) that the Fed follows the bond market, especially the two-year Treasury yield, and to what extent, if any, the Fed can push back against market-priced expectations.

With the December prints of the Personal Consumption Expenditures Deflator due Jan. 27, Samuel Lau notes that Fed Chair Jerome H. Powell’s preferred inflation metric, the Core PCE Deflator, has been falling (15:11). He asks what will the Fed do if that gauge falls below the current fed funds rate? Mr. Sherman asks his guest (20:06) for areas of the fixed income universe where investors are getting paid to take credit risk and areas to avoid. While people are focused on the Fed’s management of the fed funds rate, the discussion notes (30:50) that the Fed has quietly been pursuing another path to tighter financial conditions: balance-sheet reduction, aka quantitative tightening (QT).

TSS Episode 132: Jeff Mayberry’s 2022 Score Card and 2023 Lineup

Morris Chen, head of DoubleLine’s Commercial Mortgage-Backed Securities (CMBS) and Commercial Real Estate Debt (CRE) team, on April 18, 2023, discusses the merits of his asset class with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau. He describes CMBS-CRE both as a timely investment in the wake of repricing in 2022 and as a strategic portfolio allocation. With a primary focus on bonds rated A to AAA, Mr. Chen takes listeners behind the news headlines of defaults by commercial mortgage borrowers (2:39). In many cases, he says, these defaults, which began in 1Q2023, represent serious problems, especially in office mortgages, but have obscured healthy fundamentals in other property types. Many of these represent borrowers following necessary protocols to open the process of negotiations with lenders ahead of actual maturities. Often the better outcome for lenders will be maturity extensions and changes to loan covenants rather than foreclosure and property liquidation.

In the wake of the Great Financial Crisis, the capital structures of high-grade CMBS have undergone significant improvement (15:13). For example, Mr. Chen notes in 2007, “AAA bond had essentially had 11% subordination, which means the bond can withstand 11% of losses before that bond is impacted, at least in terms of principal. Today, an 11% subordination level equates to a single A rated security.”

Mr. Chen discusses (19:35) his team’s investment process, which includes research into the borrowers and loans securitized into CMBS; the properties securing those loans, including the tenants, utilization rates, leases and loan-to-value ratios; and bond structure. The discussion then turns to property types (26:53). Mr. Chen is most negative about office buildings. While some shopping malls are dying, other retail properties are doing well, notably grocery-anchored shopping centers. Mr. Chen and his team also are finding investment opportunities in mortgages secured by multifamily (apartments) and industrial properties.

The conversation concludes (38:58) with a discussion of the place of high-grade CMBS as a strategic allocation to a diversified fixed income portfolio. Among other factors, Mr. Chen says that investment grade CMBS at present offer attractive yields compared to corporate bonds carrying the equivalent letter-grade credit ratings while providing diversification to investors’ corporate exposures. In addition to the yield pickup, high-grade CMBS is backed by real property as collateral and beneath the subordinated debt is 30-35% equity.

TSS Episode 138: Morris Chen on Opportunities in Commercial Real Estate Debt

DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau welcome J.P. Morgan Chief U.S. Economist Michael Feroli to The Sherman Show. Mr. Feroli kicks the episode off by recounting his educational transition from philosophy to finance and his employment transition from working at the Federal Reserve Board, when Alan Greenspan was chair and Ben Bernanke was a board governor, to the private sector for J.P. Morgan (2:53). Mr. Feroli then addresses topics including the potential disconnect between financial markets and the real economy (5:42), the lag this cycle between the Fed’s interest rate hikes and their impact on the labor market (10:03), the interplay of financial stability and monetary policy in the Fed’s response to the banking crisis (17:03) and the possibility for immaculate (painless) disinflation (20:09). “Can we get back to 2% without a recession?” Mr. Feroli asks in regard to hitting the Fed’s annual inflation target. “The models would say probably not.”

Messrs. Sherman, Lau and Feroli also discuss, among other topics, what a slowdown in credit could mean for smaller businesses (28:06), fractional reserve and narrow banking systems (32:02), the hunt for a magic regressor signaling recession (41:27) and Mr. Feroli’s concerns over how the debt-ceiling standoff in Washington could go down differently this time – in a bad way (44:32). This episode was recorded May 4, 2023.

TSS Episode 139: J.P. Morgan’s Michael Feroli on the Fed’s One Tool, the Separation Principle, Immaculate Disinflation, and the Magic Regressor

TSS Episode 139: J.P. Morgan’s Michael Feroli on Fed’s One Tool, Separation Principle and more

DoubleLine Deputy CIO Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau welcome StoneX Director of Macro Global Strategy Vincent Deluard to The Sherman Show. Mr. Deluard begins the episode by sharing how his passion for collecting actual paper money and coins before getting into his career in finance, working at StoneX and teaching at Saint Mary’s College. Messrs. Sherman, Lau and Deluard then get into, among other topics, Mr. Deluard’s nonconsensus calls including his recession doubts (8:29), why he feels a certain level of inflation is accretive to the economy (12:04), why he thinks the government doesn’t need to balance its books (15:17) and where the 2% target for inflation comes from (20:00). On the topic of the federal government balancing the books, Mr. Deluard says, “I’m not arguing that we should just spend the way like Venezuela or Argentina does, but the notion that we need to balance the books is wrong. At the end of the day, it’s a tradeoff.”

The three also discuss how the Fed’s QE policy led to its current tough talk on inflation (24:50), why Mr. Deluard believes we can sidestep recession in 2023 (28:52), why we should let capitalism work out the banking dilemma (32:33) and Mr. Deluard’s thoughts on allocation (34:46), including commodity positioning (39:07) and lightening up on duration (42:14). This episode was recorded May 22, 2023.

TSS Episode 140: StoneX’s Vincent Deluard on Recession Skepticism, Not Balancing the Books and Going Lighter on Duration

TSS Episode 140: StoneX’s Vincent Deluard on Recession Skepticism, Not Balancing the Books and more

Russ Ivinjack, Global Chief Investment Officer of Aon Investments, discusses, among other topics, his management of Aon’s investment manager research teams, the discipline of selecting active managers and investment strategies, and the strategic and tactical dimensions of building portfolios to perform under a range of macroeconomic outcomes. The latter include a “dark-sky” scenario more severe than the Global Financial Crisis. DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau spoke with Mr. Ivinjack on May 23, 2023.
 
In his role as an outsource CIO to pension plans and other institutions (4:23), Mr. Ivinjack assesses how much volatility, illiquidity and other forms of risk the client is willing to bear in the portfolio as a starting point for building a strategic policy. The next level is how to implement the strategy in the asset classes suited to the client. Mr. Ivinjack notably oversees manager research teams in equities, fixed income, liquid alternatives, private equity, infrastructure and private credit.
 
In terms of the current opportunity set (9:21), Mr. Ivinjack notes that in the wake of the spike in interest rates in 2022, the markets offer “a better base to build portfolios from,” with “cash earning 5% and core fixed earning about the same.” He expresses concern that, amid higher inflation than experienced in decades, economic data used to guide investing “is far less reliable than it was just three, four years ago. I joke that we used to worry about the 0.1% difference in GDP or inflation, and now we’re worrying about one, two, or three percentage point differences in the reads that come out, and that causes much more volatility in portfolios.”
 
This necessitates (10:26) “numerous strategic studies with our clients, walking through those scenarios we call blue-sky scenarios, recessionary scenarios, stagflation or even dark-sky scenarios so they can gauge what’s the right portfolio to implement.” He defines a dark-sky scenario as “more or less a depression” involving “significant negative growth,” causing “significant impairment on financial assets in clients’ portfolios over a fairly short period of time.”
 
Mr. Ivinjack describes his teams (21:44) as “very disciplined about rebalancing, so we set targets,” rebalancing back within allocation ranges when they are exceeded. This is key in the direction of cash flows. “And we’re market aware about where valuations are. We will take that into account in terms of where to deploy new cash coming or where to take money out. That disciplined, I would say somewhat boring, approach has worked incredibly well over the last 10 years.”
 
Another issue Mr. Ivinjack calls to investors’ attention (23:57) is the concentration of risk in today’s financial markets. “If you pull back the S&P 500, it’s far more concentrated than what is five or 10 years ago. Pull back the investment-grade indices, you’ll see they’re more concentrated than they were years ago. Investors need to recognize where their unintended risks lie. People like to wring their hands about a 25 basis point position in certain securities when, frankly, their exposure to Apple is five times that, 10 times that in some cases.”
On the subject of manager research and hiring managers (25:26), he looks for stable firms, philosophy and approach, “but the key thing is they’re matching up with their philosophy and process and what their advantage is – so making sure those two stick together. Obviously, we spend a lot of time understanding the people who manage the money. It’s a lot of time on Zoom calls, in-person meetings. It’s monitoring portfolios even before we invest with them to know what they’re saying matches their actual actions.”

TSS Episode 141: Aon Investments’ Russ Ivinjack on Manger Selection and Portfolio Construction

TSS Episode 141: Aon Investments’ Russ Ivinjack on Manager Selection and Portfolio Construction

Robert Cohen, head of DoubleLine’s Global Developed Credit team, discusses navigating the waters of investment grade and high yield corporate bonds and leveraged loans as these markets enter the late stage of the economic and credit cycles. He speaks June 9, 2023, with DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau.

“We’re in a period, probably the greatest period in the last decade, where credit selection matters,” Mr. Cohen tells Messrs. Sherman and Lau (25:00). “It really hasn’t mattered for a long time. We’ve been in an environment where beta trades worked. So you liked an asset class, you liked high yield or you liked emerging markets, or you’re putting on these beta trades where you’re just allocating to a sector. Now we’re seeing great dispersion amongst the constituents of these asset classes, and we’re seeing that the dispersion of managers is widening because it’s all about credit selection.”

For corporate credit, Mr. Cohen defines a late cycle (3:01) as an environment in which “companies try to defend their balance sheet, so instead of raising money and borrowing more, they try to pay down their debt. That tends to be when credit conditions get tight, lenders are more strict or more discerning about the companies that they lend to. You often see credit metrics deteriorating in that environment.” These phenomena are underway, he says, amid a raft of warning signs portending recession such as the inverted Treasury yield curve and a negative year-over-year change in the Leading Economic Index. Credit markets are not pricing for a recession, but Mr. Cohen thinks the next one is coming in early 2024 if not by the end of 2023. 

The next default cycle (5:47) has yet to begin in below-investment-grade corporate credit, although Mr. Cohen expects it to come with or without recession. With respect to investment grade corporates, rather than looking for the rare default, Cohen is on watch for changes in new issuance, leverage and risk-taking “as opposed to companies that are defending their balance sheets, borrowing less, paying down debt.”

The term “leveraged credit” (7:29) encompasses both high yield bonds (fixed rate) and bank debt (floating rate), both of which are below investment grade. “They work kind of in tandem with each other. There are often cases where borrowers will tap both markets for a senior secured term loan and an unsecured high yield bond,” he says. “Lately, really since the pandemic in 2020, you’re seeing borrowers tap the high yield market and loan market for both a secured loan and a secured bond.”

While leveraged credit defaults peaked at around 10% in the wake of the Great Financial Crisis (8:40), Mr. Cohen expects a lower peak in defaults if the next recession is less severe, but recovery rates on defaulted bank loans will be worse The reason? “In a prior cycle, maybe bank loans would recover 70% or 80% of their initial par value” post-default, he says. Due to a decadelong deterioration in protections for secured senior lenders, he expects “recoveries closer to 50% or even lower.” In contrast, high yield bonds (10:21), Mr. Cohen notes, appear in stronger shape than at anytime before. He cites growth in the BB share of the sector and the highest percentage of secured bonds in the sector’s history. “While the loan market has been getting worse in credit quality, the high yield market has actually been getting better in credit quality.”

TSS Episode 142: Robert Cohen on Credit Selection and the Coming Default Cycle

Jeff Mayberry, Portfolio Manager on DoubleLine’s Macro Asset Allocation team, on July 10, gets graded by Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau on his forecasts for 1H2023 and shares his outlooks for the second half of the year. Jeff Mayberry gets a win on his prediction on federal funds rate hikes (2:44), shared on the Sherman Show at the beginning of the year. The podcast hosts ask him for his take on the June jobs report (5:18), which for the first time in 15 months came in below expectations. “Maybe you’re starting to see some cracks in the labor market,” he says. Mr. Sherman notes that, contrary to market expectations that tightening credit conditions would take a bite out of employment, manufacturers have continued to add jobs while “restocking of the services sector” has added payrolls in that part of the economy. 

One loss on Jeff Mayberry’s midyear scorecard (8:05) was view that the 10-year Treasury yield would not exceed 4% in 1H2023, although he did correctly predict that yield would settle into a higher range. The yield on the two-year Treasury, he thinks, could reach 5% (9:50), although he continues to watch out for labor market deterioration, which would send that yield lower. Mr. Mayberry’s 10% allocation to Treasury bills (11:56) proved a winner. He is keeping on his fixed income allocation for 1H2023 through 2H2023. That deployment forms a barbell between higher-yielding credit and longer-duration Treasuries, the government allocation aimed at offsetting a future widening of credit spreads if the economy enters recession. 

Messrs. Sherman and Lau give Mr. Mayberry a “solid win” for his bullish call on technology stocks (15:50), the best-performing sector of the S&P 500 year-to-date. One losing theme turned out to be his favoring commodities (18:16), which among other headwinds had to contend with China’s failure to re-open its economy. The hosts and guest discuss the macroeconomic outlook for the United States. Amid weakness in manufacturing but resilience in services, and low unemployment (21:18), Jeff Mayberry expects the Fed to keep rates elevated the remainder of 2023. “The Fed doesn't want to say they want a recession,” he says. They don't want to say they need unemployment to rise, they need wages to fall, but they do in order to get inflation back down. That's what they're going to be focused on: wages and the labor market overall.” If the economy remains resilient, he expects the Fed to raise rates in 2H2023.

Mr. Sherman and Mr. Mayberry agree that the resumption of student loan payments (28:11), coming after three years of forbearance, could become a new headwind for the economy. “That's going to hurt consumers, it's going to hurt consumption” in some households, Mr. Mayberry says. However, he describes the odds of recession this year as “very low.” Notwithstanding that outlook, he advises preparing for trouble now by including longer-duration Treasuries in one’s portfolio (35:07). “If we're not getting a recession this year, you still want to have that barbell side, that flight-to-safety side, your long-duration Treasury side to kind of take some of the edge off of the spread-widening that would occur before a recession comes.”

The discussion turns to Mr. Mayberry’s outlook for emerging market and developed market ex-U.S. equities (39:25), cryptocurrency (41:08) and overall asset allocations, including cash and credit (42:23).  As for fixed income, he would “avoid the investment grade credit market at 130 basis points over. I'd rather just go more high yield, more bank loans, more emerging markets, and then Treasuries to give you that duration. So one third in Treasuries, two thirds in credit.” As for U.S. equities (43:21), he does not expect the S&P 500 to match its performance in the first half of the year, and he advises some diversifying away from the market-cap-weighted large-cap index into other areas of the stock market, including mid- and small-cap stocks and value stocks.

TSS Episode 143: Mayberry’s Midyear Score Card and 2H2023 Outlook

DoubleLine Deputy CIO Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau welcome Matt Forester, CIO of BNY Mellon Advisors, to The Sherman Show. Mr. Forester kicks off the episode by discussing the recent branding shift from Lockwood Advisors to BNY Mellon Advisors and the opportunities it will provide to the firm, which oversees about 550 strategies that it can provide to clients (0:53). Mr. Forester then shares his macro and markets outlook, including where we are in the cycle (8:08), how the Fed’s fight to lower inflation is going to get tougher the closer it gets to its 2% target rate (9:22) and what he calls the frenzy into AI stocks (11:10), which they then take a deep dive into. Mr. Forester notes that the companies that made money from the creation of a national electrical grid in the 1920s and the launch of the internet in the 1990s were not the beneficiaries of these productivity-enhancing technologies. “I suspect we’re there again, that the companies that are now leading the charge are not the same ones that are going to emerge,” he says. The three also discuss the hype around AI (13:44), and what these kinds of tools might mean for the investment world when everyone is using them (18:34).

They round out the episode with talk on recession probability (23:13), the pitfalls that Mr. Forester sees out there (29:07), his thoughts on asset allocation (33:41) and what the fiscal response mechanism could be in the next recession (37:19). On the latter Mr. Forester says, “I don’t think fiscal policy is going to be a big tailwind for markets for quite a long time. We’ve just got a really big hole to dig out of.” This episode was recorded July 17, 2023.

TSS Episode 144: Wading Into the AI-Stirred Stock Froth

Joseph Mallen, founder and CEO of Modelist, discusses with Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau evidence-based investing, the integration of customized models with the securities and managers to implement them, the role of AI in his platform, and his take on the present state of financial markets and the macroeconomy. Modelist constructs model portfolios tailored to the needs of financial advisors. This conversation took place Sept. 7, 2023. 
 
After Mr. Sherman introduces (0:33) Mr. Mallen and they discuss the career that led him to launch Modelist, Mr. Mallen shares (4:00) his approach to modeling and the way Modelist works with independent financial advisors. Modelist develops and maintains models that implement a diverse array (9:01) of investment methods, including trend-following, relative strength, duration management, credit management and inflation expectations. Modelist’s models incorporate passive strategies as well as strategies that allocate among active managers. In the case of using tradeable securities (12:46), Modelist often relies on exchange-traded funds. At the end of the day, Mr. Mallen says, the objective, regardless of the choice of models tailored for the advisor, is “robotic-type investing based upon what the data says and taking emotion completely out of the equation” (17:09). Toward the end of the conversation (49:51), Mr. Mallen discusses Modelist’s use of artificial intelligence as an investment tool.
 
Turning to market and macroeconomic outlooks (29:45), Mr. Mallen observes markets have “churned up,” leaving equity valuations “pretty extended” amid a “severely inverted” yield curve and signals of a “recession that’s looming” but “still has yet to come.” He notes (30:44) that the Federal Reserve has “done a good job of putting itself in a position where if data does start to get pretty gnarly, they can reverse course. And I think that’s what’s kind of priced in and embedded right now is the fact that people are expecting economic weakness, and, in turn, they are expecting the Fed to react and loosen monetary policy.” 
 
With respect to U.S. stocks (31:15), Mr. Mallen would “like a little bit of a mean reversion” with value “catching up, maybe providing that leadership between now and the end of the year relative to growth. I think growth could use a little bit of a reset. We’ve had seven companies in the S&P drive most of the return so far this year.” In fixed income, he still favors short duration. “Just from an academic perspective, I’m getting a greater yield with less expected volatility than on the longer end of the curve. I’m not as insulated if rates do fall, but I like that kind of conservative approach. Take that 4½% and 5% on the fixed income side of the book – go value.”

TSS Episode 145: Modelist CEO Joseph Mallen on Evidence-Based Investing

Liz Young, head of investment strategy at personal finance company and bank SoFi, discusses markets, the investor movement to DIY investing, and her investment process and market outlook with DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau in this episode recorded Sept. 12, 2023. Their conversation begins with a discussion of Ms. Young’s career (1:06) in the investment industry and her path to SoFi, where she dispenses her economic, investment and market insights to a variety of audiences. Then she discusses the evolution of investors (6:04), away from “high-touch advisory” investment professionals to DIY investing, a movement with which SoFi works to bring education and tools to enable investors’ success. She notes the DIY movement has especially taken hold among younger people and new investors (9:15). For example, while the average age of clients at older brokerages is 55 to 65, 60% of SoFi’s investment clients are 20 to 40.

Turning to the investment process at SoFi (16:35), Ms. Young begins with her assessment of the macroeconomic cycle and whether the market is reflecting that assessment or reflecting something else. If inconsistencies arise between macro and market signals, she says, “in my head it means one of the two is wrong. One of these two data sets is sending the wrong message or the timing is off and then you try to figure out what’s happening.” She warns (21:12) that investors have become conditioned to expect troubles in the capital system will be corrected by an “open-ended insurance program” underwritten by fiscal authorities and central banks. “OK, rates are now up, but (people’s thinking goes) we have this sort of never-ending punch bowl of stimulus if something ever goes wrong. In my eyes, that’s probably the next thing that can’t last forever.” While some observers have theorized the absence of a long-telegraphed recession points to a soft landing, Ms. Young points to historical data (24:23), noting the economy has only recently neared or crossed the average time lags between leading indicator warnings and the advent of recession. Mr. Sherman agrees, adding that even when such average time gaps are crossed, volatility around the average could allow for further delay before the next contraction begins.

TSS Episode 146: SoFi’s Liz Young on Markets, DIY Investing and Capturing Gen Z Investors

DoubleLine ETF Specialist Scott Thomson discusses his role at the firm and describes the growing use and evolution of exchange-traded funds as vehicles for trading and investment with DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman and Macro Asset Allocation Analyst Mark Kimbrough. The discussion begins (1:08) with the career of Mr. Thomson, who joined DoubleLine in 2022 after working as an ETF Capital Markets and Fixed Income Strategist with PIMCO. Mr. Thomson next discusses the history of ETFs (5:29) since the first of this vehicle launched in 1993 and their evolution, a trajectory that began with passive equities funds but now includes fixed income as well as active strategies and commodities, among others. 
 
ETFs (9:11) continue to evolve and diversify, Mr. Thomson says, noting the development of semi-transparent structures and derivative-based strategies. He foresees growth potential in  fund-of-funds strategies, which have long existed in the mutual fund universe, becoming available in ETFs as well as ETFs as a share class of mutual funds. 
 
Mr. Sherman asks Mr. Thomson to discuss his role heading up DoubleLine’s capital markets efforts in ETFs (11:34). Mr. Thomson breaks his role into four areas: primary markets, secondary markets, client execution services and relationship management between authorized participants and market makers.
 
Asked by Mr. Kimbrough to explain the drivers behind the growth in fixed income ETFs (17:09), Mr. Thomson points to a combination of factors, including advisors seeking new and different investment tools, among other reasons, to the implementation of ETF model portfolios, which have grown in number and variety. Asked for advice for people who wish to trade ETFs (22:18), Mr. Thomson advises, “Always use limit orders. Don’t use market orders. That just helps you avoid paying more than you want.” For financial advisors looking to trade more than a couple of hundred shares in an ETF, he recommends they work with their firm’s or custodian’s block trading desk to support best order execution.
 
Mr. Sherman, recalling Mr. Thomson’s comments on the efficiency of the arbitrage mechanism in ETFs, asks the ETF specialist to describe (25:13) the liquidity and efficiency of ETFs amid the dislocation of fixed income markets in March 2020.

TSS Episode 147: DoubleLine’s Scott Thomson on the Evolution of ETFs

Andy Constan, founder, CEO and Chief Investment Officer of Damped Spring, joins DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau to discuss his approach to macroeconomics-driven investing. They also discuss, among other timely topics, Mr. Constan’s outlook for persistent inflation above the Federal Reserve’s 2% target. Damped Spring is a full-service macroeconomic research firm. This episode of the Sherman Show was recorded Nov. 20, 2023.
 
DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman opens the conversation (0:38), asking Mr. Constan to describe his 35 years in the financial markets, a career that began at Solomon Brothers in 1986 and spans roles at such notable names as Bridgewater Associates and Brevan Howard before the launch of Damped Spring. Then the discussion turns to Mr. Constan’s macroeconomic approach to investment decision making (4:45). Mr. Constan operates with a four-pillar framework. First, he focuses on how growth occurs in an economy and how inflation works on an economy. From those two starting points, he seeks to understand “the risk premium that assets contain and how policymakers and market participants can influence the risk premium, which is the return you get on assets.” Once those three factors come into focus, Mr. Constan overlays a fourth pillar his framework: positioning. “When those three other things are moving, it still matters how people are positioned, what's priced into markets and what's going to cause investors to change their positioning.”
 
Mr. Constan warns against decision-making based on taking risk premiums as objective levels for trade exit or entry (7:18). “There's no level that is the correct level.” Attempting to buy or sell based on perceived whether a term premium is too high or too low can land investors “in a lot of trouble – just as most investors get themselves in a lot of trouble” buying and selling simply because assets are priced above estimates of fair value. “Markets overshoot all the time. It's very difficult to be an investor to base your investment thesis just on the level of valuation. And so the level of risk premium is not that important to me because nobody knows what it is. The only way you can interpret risk premium is through a model. All models have assumptions. All models require assumptions of forward-looking information which is unavailable.” 
 
Instead of focusing on estimated risk premium levels, Mr. Constan’s framework “just focuses on what could change term premiums because that's what you need to know to be an investor. If you think term premiums are going to fall, you want to own assets. If you think term premiums are going to expand, you want to sell assets. And so my framework just focuses on the factors that would cause term premium to change” (8:50). He then describes variables that can change risk premiums. These include changes in the supply of an asset vs. demand for it as well as changes in credit availability and monetary conditions.
 
Jeffrey Sherman then asks Andy Constan for his thoughts on inflation (12:32), noting “perhaps people have not been thinking about the inflation component for, let's call it, over a decade. What are your thoughts about inflation today? What are your thoughts about how investors should incorporate some of this into estimates that raise premiums and hence thinking through the allocation process?” Mr. Constan starts with the fact of falling inflation, under the twin drivers of correcting supply chains and “less easy” monetary policy. A naïve extrapolation of those trends forward would point to inflation soon falling to the Fed’s 2% target or even undershooting it. Mr. Constan, however, expects inflation to a plateau well above 2%. Factors driving resilient above-target inflation, he says, are “a still-very-strong job market,” ample residual reserves “that will keep liquidity high and support demand” and “the three Ds” of de-globalization.

TSS Episode 148: Andy Constan on Macro-Driven Investing, Inflation and the 3Ds of De-Globalization

Jim Bianco, President of market and macroeconomic research firm Bianco Research, appears Jan. 11, 2024, with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau to discuss among other issues his outlook for a “no landing” U.S. economy in 2024, sticky inflation of 3% to 4% and his theory on Fed Chair Jerome H. Powell’s dovish turn on Dec. 13. “The problem with the economy is there isn’t a problem,” Mr. Bianco says. “My biggest concern is too much growth and sticky inflation.”

Between a hawkish Powell speech on Dec. 1 and Powell’s softened stance on Dec. 13, the data showed no change in economic fundamentals. So what changed his mind? Mr. Bianco notes that Federal Reserve officials prefer unanimous or near-unanimous votes on monetary policy and bank regulations. He suspects “a bunch of doves” among the FOMC’s voting members let Chair Powell know they were prepared to vote in dissent, “and I think he acquiesced.”

Mr. Bianco thinks the biggest change in the economy coming out of 2020 was remote work. On economic fundamentals, he sees little case for “a macro problem with the labor market” or trouble with the consumer. He does note warning signs in credit and the potentially problematic rise of the U.S. government’s interest expense.

Asked about exogenous risks, Mr. Bianco points to attacks on commercial shipping in the Red Sea and the consequent rerouting of 30% to 40% of the world’s cargo shipping from that critical Asia-Europe route to around Africa. Mr. Bianco warns delays will spell inventory trouble not only in Europe but in the U.S.

Mr. Bianco has some criticism of the Federal Reserve. “The Fed first raised rates in March of 2022. What was the year-over-year inflation rate when they finally got to the first rate hike? It was 8.6%. Boy, they waited way, way, way too long before they got it.”

Messrs. Sherman and Lau also discuss with Mr. Bianco why the bond market sometimes is “smarter at sniffing out disaster” than the stock market, the absence of recession despite protracted recessionary warnings from leading indicators and complacency in the credit market.

TSS E149: Bianco on a “No Landing” Economy, Sticky Inflation and Powell Pivot

TSS Episode 149: Bianco on a “No Landing” Economy, Sticky Inflation and Powell Pivot

Jeffrey Sherman, DoubleLine’s Deputy CIO and Sam Lau, DoubleLine’s Asset Allocation Analyst, talk “Infrastructure” strategy & investing with Damien Contes and Andrew Hsu, DoubleLine’s Global Infrastructure Investment Portfolio Managers.

Episode 2 - Infrastructure

S1 E2 - Infrastructure

Sherman Show’s, Jeffrey Sherman, Deputy CIO and Sam Lau, DoubleLine’s Asset Allocation Analyst host an interesting interview with Jeffrey Gundlach, DoubleLine’s CEO, who turns the tables on the fearsome duo.

S1 E7 - Jeffrey Gundlach, DoubleLine

Jeffrey Sherman, DoubleLine’s Deputy CIO & Sam Lau, DoubleLine’s Asset Allocation Analyst, host a candid conversation with Jeff Mayberry, member of the management team and trading for derivatives based and multi-asset strategies at DoubleLine, discussing commodities, Europe, the economy, and equity markets. The Shiller CAPE® Ratio includes back-tested data to 1871. For detailed information regarding data collection visit http://www.econ.yale.edu/~shiller/data.htm

DoubleLine

The Sherman Show Season 2 Episode 1 - Mayberry

S2 E1 - Jeff Mayberry, DoubleLine

Jeffrey Sherman, DoubleLine’s Deputy CIO and Sam Lau, DoubleLine Macro Asset Allocation,  strike up a conversation with Bill Harding , Senior VP  & CIO at Jackson National Asset Mgmt, to talk about variable annuities and the insurance space.

S3 E3 - Bill Harding, Senior VP & CEO Jackson National Asset Mgmt, The Sherman Show

S3 E3 - Bill Harding, SrVP & CIO Jackson National Asset Management

Description: Jeffrey Sherman, DoubleLine’s Deputy CIO and Sam Lau, DoubleLine Macro Asset Allocation, welcome Mark Christiansen and Su-Fei Koo from DoubleLine’s International Fixed Income team to discuss Emerging Markets.

S3 E5 - Mark Christiansen, Su-Fei Koo - International Fixed Income, DoubleLine - The Sherman Show

In this episode of The Sherman Show, David Zervos, Ph.D., Chief Market Strategist for Jefferies LLC and Chief Investment Officer for the Global Macro Division of Jefferies Investment Advisers, LLC, describes how his academic path mutated to macroeconomics from electrical engineering, his stints in the Federal Reserve and Bank of England, and ultimately making his way into the private sector, including hedge funds and sell-side firms before matriculating at Jefferies. Then Mr. Zervos and DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau dive into a discussion of managing money through financial crises, his insider’s view at the Fed during the crafting of Quantitative Easing to avoid another Great Depression, unconventional monetary policy becoming conventional, why he disbelieves Phillips Curve theory, his evolving views on inflation and risk parity among other topics.

S5 E9 David Zervos, CIO - Jeffries, The Sherman Show

S5 E9 - David Zervos, CIO - Jefferies, The Sherman Show

CLO analyst Joe Mezyk joins The Sherman Show to explain the $750 billion collateralized loan obligation market with DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau. Their discussion starts by explaining floating-rate bank loans which form the collateral of CLOs and how the securitization process of a CLO allows the creation of equity and below investment grade obligations as well senior, AAA-rated securities. Mr. Mezyk then describes the risks and advantages of CLOs, the reasons for the growth in the sector’s popularity with investors, the historical default and recovery rates of CLOs (including in the credit crisis of 2008-2009 and the energy-sector downturn in 2015) and how he analyzes CLOs and CLO collateral managers in order to invest in these securities. Among further topics, Mr. Mezyk describes how the CLO market has evolved, more than doubling in size since the credit crisis and the growth of “covenant-lite” loans with their lessened protections for investors to make up 80% of the sector. He also delves into the evolution of the underlying bank loan sector. This episode of The Sherman Show was recorded on September 9, 2019.

S6 E7 Joe Mezyk, CLO Analyst – DoubleLine, The Sherman Show

S6 E7 - Joe Mezyk, CLO Analyst - DoubleLine, The Sherman Show

Sherman Show hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Sam Lau are joined by returning guest Jeff Mayberry as they try to assess how macroeconomic fundamentals stack up versus U.S. market prices. Among other issues in this June 3, 2020, discussion, Messrs. Sherman, Lau and Mayberry talk about COVID-19 trends in the U.S., noting that much of the good news was driven by decreased cases in the New York City tri-state area; if there are any positive indicators to be found in noisy jobless numbers; and whether the month’s data points back some of the more optimistic projections for the economy’s recovery. 

Some have interpreted a recovery in personal mobility data and rising TSA travel as positive signs for an economic rebound. Mr. Sherman, however, voices some skepticism. While TSA travel activity has marked improvements month to month, year-to-year the figures are way down, with TSA reporting travel numbers 90% below those of 12 months ago. Gasoline consumption is also down year-over-year. 

They also review the massive quantitative easing initiatives by the Federal Reserve and the reaction of the markets that have been targeted. There has been zero interest from companies, notes Mr. Sherman, who points out that jawboning about the programs is having more of an impact than participation in the programs.

S8 E15 Risk-on Ruled for the Month of May

S8 E15 - Risk-On Ruled For The Month Of May

David Rosenberg joins DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau to share, among other topics, his view on the (dim) prospects for a sustained V-shaped recovery; his choice of indicators for how the economy is progressing; the 10-year divorce between the U.S. economy and stocks; and, beyond the COVID-19 crisis, a future of stagflation. Mr. Rosenberg is the President and Chief Economist & Strategist of the economic consulting firm Rosenberg Research & Associates Inc. The podcast was recorded June 8, 2020.
 
In regard to his near-term view of the markets and the economy, Mr. Rosenberg argues, “The stock market and the economy became divorced a decade ago.” The rally off the March low, he says, “is all about Fed-induced liquidity.” “We have a lot of hopes over a vaccine,” he says. “Maybe the ‘V’ recovery stands for ‘vaccine.’ But let’s face it: This is the mother of all liquidity rallies that we’ve ever seen.” To illustrate, he cites M2, an important Fed measure of the size of the U.S. money supply. He notes that the Fed has boosted M2 by $2½ trillion since mid-March. “And what do you know … the market cap of the S&P 500 has gone up in that same time period by $2½ trillion.” 
 
Mr. Rosenberg expects the economy, as measured by conventional economic metrics and data points, to stage a “reflexive rebound” in the months ahead with the turn in the weather and all 50 states out of lockdown. “The question is, beyond the third quarter, will it be prolonged? And that’s going to be dependent on demand,” Rosenberg says. Rather than looking at coincident indicators, he advises watching spending intention surveys and consumer confidence. He was unimpressed by the prior week’s positive nonfarm payroll report, which was fraught with reporting irregularities and other problems. The critical determinant for demand, he says, is the timely arrival of a vaccine or effective treatment. 
 
Over the long term, Mr. Rosenberg sees no return to the state of the economy pre-COVID-19. “There is no such thing in this business as a get-out-of-jail-free card,” he says. “This is only a business of Newtonian physics where every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but there are lags.” At some point in the future, he expects aggregate to stabilize, and “we’re going to be left with a regulatory, (flatter) world and shrinking globalization that is going to mean cost-push inflation, and localized supply chains taking precedence over globalized supply chains. The corporate cost curve is going to look different, and the aggregate supply curve is going to be looking a lot more inelastic or sclerotic than it has in the past. So, we’re going to supply-side inflation. We’re going to have a form of stagflation in the future.”

S8 E16 Economist David Rosenberg Returns as Guest on The Sherman Show

S8 E16 - Economist David Rosenberg Returns to The Sherman Show

James Grant, founder of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer and author of the biography “Bagehot,” the life of times of the muse of modern central banking (published in 2019), returns to “The Sherman Show” to discuss, among other topics, paradoxical market valuations, why the Federal Reserve is “a clear and present danger to your wealth,” the threat of central bank digital currencies to liberty, the accelerating “heretical union” of monetary and fiscal authorities, and the prospects for an acceleration in the rate of inflation. This discussion was recorded Nov. 17, 2020. 
Among his greatest market preoccupations, Mr. Grant tells podcast hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau, is the fact that “the world is in love with sterile securities … that pay you just about nothing. … The world’s central banks are pledging to depreciate or debase the currencies in which these ultra-low-yielding claims are denominated, and still we collectively can’t seem to get enough of them.”
In a time of the Fed rapidly expanding its activities beyond its charter, Mr. Grant, a historian of the central bank, notes that Fed mission creep began almost from its beginning. “The Fed opened its doors in 1914,” Mr. Grant notes, “and within three years the United States was at war, and the entire business model of the Fed was turned upside down, and the Fed began doing things that the founders had never contemplated. It lent against the collateral of Treasuries in the banking system. It monetized debt hand over fist. It did everything that Carter Glass, the progenitor of the Fed, promised it would never do.”
What at the Fed should shock us today? “That Jerome Powell, the chairman of the Fed, came out and said something about working `side by side’ (I think that was the phrase) with the Treasury. Every gold bull cocked his or her ears.  We could not believe it because the chairman was advocating another breach of monetary best practices, namely, the separation of fiscal church from monetary state. In other words, the overt monetization of the public debt.”
Central bank digital currencies (CBDCs) under study at the Fed and other central banks could endow government with “unlimited snooping power,” Mr. Grant warns. His “foremost objection” to CBDCs “is the nose of the camel under the tent of liberty. Why wouldn’t the government use digital currencies to abolish paper currency? Why wouldn’t it come to know how we are spending our money and where we have stashed those Krugerrands in expectation of a possible acrimonious divorce (although about that personal risk I assure you I wouldn’t know)?”
People at the Fed “are idiot savants,” Mr. Grant tells Messrs. Sherman and Lau. “They know nothing about the past. Their entire focus is on their models and recent precedent. If you look at the scholarly citations in the back of any of the Fed position papers, the oldest citation goes back only as far as, say, 2010. They have no historical framework.  They believe that they control events. No, events will presently control them because events are a little bit like the coronavirus. They are unpredictable. They are sometimes quite benign, but they are sometimes malevolent.”

S9 E5 - James Grant, Founder - Grant’s Interest Rate Observer

S9 E5 - Jim Grant, Founder - Grant's Interest Rate Observer

Jeffrey Sherman, DoubleLine’s Deputy CIO and Sam Lau, DoubleLine’s Asset Allocation Analyst, host a series of podcasts with distinguished guests, giving listeners insight into DoubleLine’s strategies, Portfolio Managers and industry innovators.

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