DoubleLine Deputy CIO Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau welcome StoneX Director of Macro Global Strategy Vincent Deluard to The Sherman Show. Mr. Deluard begins the episode by sharing how his passion for collecting actual paper money and coins before getting into his career in finance, working at StoneX and teaching at Saint Mary’s College. Messrs. Sherman, Lau and Deluard then get into, among other topics, Mr. Deluard’s nonconsensus calls including his recession doubts (8:29), why he feels a certain level of inflation is accretive to the economy (12:04), why he thinks the government doesn’t need to balance its books (15:17) and where the 2% target for inflation comes from (20:00). On the topic of the federal government balancing the books, Mr. Deluard says, “I’m not arguing that we should just spend the way like Venezuela or Argentina does, but the notion that we need to balance the books is wrong. At the end of the day, it’s a tradeoff.”

The three also discuss how the Fed’s QE policy led to its current tough talk on inflation (24:50), why Mr. Deluard believes we can sidestep recession in 2023 (28:52), why we should let capitalism work out the banking dilemma (32:33) and Mr. Deluard’s thoughts on allocation (34:46), including commodity positioning (39:07) and lightening up on duration (42:14). This episode was recorded May 22, 2023.

The Sherman Show

TSS Episode 140: StoneX’s Vincent Deluard on Recession Skepticism, Not Balancing the Books and Going Lighter on Duration

TSS Episode 140: StoneX’s Vincent Deluard on Recession Skepticism, Not Balancing the Books and more

Russ Ivinjack, Global Chief Investment Officer of Aon Investments, discusses, among other topics, his management of Aon’s investment manager research teams, the discipline of selecting active managers and investment strategies, and the strategic and tactical dimensions of building portfolios to perform under a range of macroeconomic outcomes. The latter include a “dark-sky” scenario more severe than the Global Financial Crisis. DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau spoke with Mr. Ivinjack on May 23, 2023.
 
In his role as an outsource CIO to pension plans and other institutions (4:23), Mr. Ivinjack assesses how much volatility, illiquidity and other forms of risk the client is willing to bear in the portfolio as a starting point for building a strategic policy. The next level is how to implement the strategy in the asset classes suited to the client. Mr. Ivinjack notably oversees manager research teams in equities, fixed income, liquid alternatives, private equity, infrastructure and private credit.
 
In terms of the current opportunity set (9:21), Mr. Ivinjack notes that in the wake of the spike in interest rates in 2022, the markets offer “a better base to build portfolios from,” with “cash earning 5% and core fixed earning about the same.” He expresses concern that, amid higher inflation than experienced in decades, economic data used to guide investing “is far less reliable than it was just three, four years ago. I joke that we used to worry about the 0.1% difference in GDP or inflation, and now we’re worrying about one, two, or three percentage point differences in the reads that come out, and that causes much more volatility in portfolios.”
 
This necessitates (10:26) “numerous strategic studies with our clients, walking through those scenarios we call blue-sky scenarios, recessionary scenarios, stagflation or even dark-sky scenarios so they can gauge what’s the right portfolio to implement.” He defines a dark-sky scenario as “more or less a depression” involving “significant negative growth,” causing “significant impairment on financial assets in clients’ portfolios over a fairly short period of time.”
 
Mr. Ivinjack describes his teams (21:44) as “very disciplined about rebalancing, so we set targets,” rebalancing back within allocation ranges when they are exceeded. This is key in the direction of cash flows. “And we’re market aware about where valuations are. We will take that into account in terms of where to deploy new cash coming or where to take money out. That disciplined, I would say somewhat boring, approach has worked incredibly well over the last 10 years.”
 
Another issue Mr. Ivinjack calls to investors’ attention (23:57) is the concentration of risk in today’s financial markets. “If you pull back the S&P 500, it’s far more concentrated than what is five or 10 years ago. Pull back the investment-grade indices, you’ll see they’re more concentrated than they were years ago. Investors need to recognize where their unintended risks lie. People like to wring their hands about a 25 basis point position in certain securities when, frankly, their exposure to Apple is five times that, 10 times that in some cases.”
On the subject of manager research and hiring managers (25:26), he looks for stable firms, philosophy and approach, “but the key thing is they’re matching up with their philosophy and process and what their advantage is – so making sure those two stick together. Obviously, we spend a lot of time understanding the people who manage the money. It’s a lot of time on Zoom calls, in-person meetings. It’s monitoring portfolios even before we invest with them to know what they’re saying matches their actual actions.”

TSS Episode 141: Aon Investments’ Russ Ivinjack on Manger Selection and Portfolio Construction

TSS Episode 141: Aon Investments’ Russ Ivinjack on Manager Selection and Portfolio Construction

Robert Cohen, head of DoubleLine’s Global Developed Credit team, discusses navigating the waters of investment grade and high yield corporate bonds and leveraged loans as these markets enter the late stage of the economic and credit cycles. He speaks June 9, 2023, with DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau.

“We’re in a period, probably the greatest period in the last decade, where credit selection matters,” Mr. Cohen tells Messrs. Sherman and Lau (25:00). “It really hasn’t mattered for a long time. We’ve been in an environment where beta trades worked. So you liked an asset class, you liked high yield or you liked emerging markets, or you’re putting on these beta trades where you’re just allocating to a sector. Now we’re seeing great dispersion amongst the constituents of these asset classes, and we’re seeing that the dispersion of managers is widening because it’s all about credit selection.”

For corporate credit, Mr. Cohen defines a late cycle (3:01) as an environment in which “companies try to defend their balance sheet, so instead of raising money and borrowing more, they try to pay down their debt. That tends to be when credit conditions get tight, lenders are more strict or more discerning about the companies that they lend to. You often see credit metrics deteriorating in that environment.” These phenomena are underway, he says, amid a raft of warning signs portending recession such as the inverted Treasury yield curve and a negative year-over-year change in the Leading Economic Index. Credit markets are not pricing for a recession, but Mr. Cohen thinks the next one is coming in early 2024 if not by the end of 2023. 

The next default cycle (5:47) has yet to begin in below-investment-grade corporate credit, although Mr. Cohen expects it to come with or without recession. With respect to investment grade corporates, rather than looking for the rare default, Cohen is on watch for changes in new issuance, leverage and risk-taking “as opposed to companies that are defending their balance sheets, borrowing less, paying down debt.”

The term “leveraged credit” (7:29) encompasses both high yield bonds (fixed rate) and bank debt (floating rate), both of which are below investment grade. “They work kind of in tandem with each other. There are often cases where borrowers will tap both markets for a senior secured term loan and an unsecured high yield bond,” he says. “Lately, really since the pandemic in 2020, you’re seeing borrowers tap the high yield market and loan market for both a secured loan and a secured bond.”

While leveraged credit defaults peaked at around 10% in the wake of the Great Financial Crisis (8:40), Mr. Cohen expects a lower peak in defaults if the next recession is less severe, but recovery rates on defaulted bank loans will be worse The reason? “In a prior cycle, maybe bank loans would recover 70% or 80% of their initial par value” post-default, he says. Due to a decadelong deterioration in protections for secured senior lenders, he expects “recoveries closer to 50% or even lower.” In contrast, high yield bonds (10:21), Mr. Cohen notes, appear in stronger shape than at anytime before. He cites growth in the BB share of the sector and the highest percentage of secured bonds in the sector’s history. “While the loan market has been getting worse in credit quality, the high yield market has actually been getting better in credit quality.”

TSS Episode 142: Robert Cohen on Credit Selection and the Coming Default Cycle

Jeff Mayberry, Portfolio Manager on DoubleLine’s Macro Asset Allocation team, on July 10, gets graded by Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau on his forecasts for 1H2023 and shares his outlooks for the second half of the year. Jeff Mayberry gets a win on his prediction on federal funds rate hikes (2:44), shared on the Sherman Show at the beginning of the year. The podcast hosts ask him for his take on the June jobs report (5:18), which for the first time in 15 months came in below expectations. “Maybe you’re starting to see some cracks in the labor market,” he says. Mr. Sherman notes that, contrary to market expectations that tightening credit conditions would take a bite out of employment, manufacturers have continued to add jobs while “restocking of the services sector” has added payrolls in that part of the economy. 

One loss on Jeff Mayberry’s midyear scorecard (8:05) was view that the 10-year Treasury yield would not exceed 4% in 1H2023, although he did correctly predict that yield would settle into a higher range. The yield on the two-year Treasury, he thinks, could reach 5% (9:50), although he continues to watch out for labor market deterioration, which would send that yield lower. Mr. Mayberry’s 10% allocation to Treasury bills (11:56) proved a winner. He is keeping on his fixed income allocation for 1H2023 through 2H2023. That deployment forms a barbell between higher-yielding credit and longer-duration Treasuries, the government allocation aimed at offsetting a future widening of credit spreads if the economy enters recession. 

Messrs. Sherman and Lau give Mr. Mayberry a “solid win” for his bullish call on technology stocks (15:50), the best-performing sector of the S&P 500 year-to-date. One losing theme turned out to be his favoring commodities (18:16), which among other headwinds had to contend with China’s failure to re-open its economy. The hosts and guest discuss the macroeconomic outlook for the United States. Amid weakness in manufacturing but resilience in services, and low unemployment (21:18), Jeff Mayberry expects the Fed to keep rates elevated the remainder of 2023. “The Fed doesn't want to say they want a recession,” he says. They don't want to say they need unemployment to rise, they need wages to fall, but they do in order to get inflation back down. That's what they're going to be focused on: wages and the labor market overall.” If the economy remains resilient, he expects the Fed to raise rates in 2H2023.

Mr. Sherman and Mr. Mayberry agree that the resumption of student loan payments (28:11), coming after three years of forbearance, could become a new headwind for the economy. “That's going to hurt consumers, it's going to hurt consumption” in some households, Mr. Mayberry says. However, he describes the odds of recession this year as “very low.” Notwithstanding that outlook, he advises preparing for trouble now by including longer-duration Treasuries in one’s portfolio (35:07). “If we're not getting a recession this year, you still want to have that barbell side, that flight-to-safety side, your long-duration Treasury side to kind of take some of the edge off of the spread-widening that would occur before a recession comes.”

The discussion turns to Mr. Mayberry’s outlook for emerging market and developed market ex-U.S. equities (39:25), cryptocurrency (41:08) and overall asset allocations, including cash and credit (42:23).  As for fixed income, he would “avoid the investment grade credit market at 130 basis points over. I'd rather just go more high yield, more bank loans, more emerging markets, and then Treasuries to give you that duration. So one third in Treasuries, two thirds in credit.” As for U.S. equities (43:21), he does not expect the S&P 500 to match its performance in the first half of the year, and he advises some diversifying away from the market-cap-weighted large-cap index into other areas of the stock market, including mid- and small-cap stocks and value stocks.

TSS Episode 143: Mayberry’s Midyear Score Card and 2H2023 Outlook

DoubleLine Deputy CIO Jeffrey Sherman and Portfolio Manager Samuel Lau welcome Matt Forester, CIO of BNY Mellon Advisors, to The Sherman Show. Mr. Forester kicks off the episode by discussing the recent branding shift from Lockwood Advisors to BNY Mellon Advisors and the opportunities it will provide to the firm, which oversees about 550 strategies that it can provide to clients (0:53). Mr. Forester then shares his macro and markets outlook, including where we are in the cycle (8:08), how the Fed’s fight to lower inflation is going to get tougher the closer it gets to its 2% target rate (9:22) and what he calls the frenzy into AI stocks (11:10), which they then take a deep dive into. Mr. Forester notes that the companies that made money from the creation of a national electrical grid in the 1920s and the launch of the internet in the 1990s were not the beneficiaries of these productivity-enhancing technologies. “I suspect we’re there again, that the companies that are now leading the charge are not the same ones that are going to emerge,” he says. The three also discuss the hype around AI (13:44), and what these kinds of tools might mean for the investment world when everyone is using them (18:34).

They round out the episode with talk on recession probability (23:13), the pitfalls that Mr. Forester sees out there (29:07), his thoughts on asset allocation (33:41) and what the fiscal response mechanism could be in the next recession (37:19). On the latter Mr. Forester says, “I don’t think fiscal policy is going to be a big tailwind for markets for quite a long time. We’ve just got a really big hole to dig out of.” This episode was recorded July 17, 2023.

TSS Episode 144: Wading Into the AI-Stirred Stock Froth

Joseph Mallen, founder and CEO of Modelist, discusses with Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau evidence-based investing, the integration of customized models with the securities and managers to implement them, the role of AI in his platform, and his take on the present state of financial markets and the macroeconomy. Modelist constructs model portfolios tailored to the needs of financial advisors. This conversation took place Sept. 7, 2023. 
 
After Mr. Sherman introduces (0:33) Mr. Mallen and they discuss the career that led him to launch Modelist, Mr. Mallen shares (4:00) his approach to modeling and the way Modelist works with independent financial advisors. Modelist develops and maintains models that implement a diverse array (9:01) of investment methods, including trend-following, relative strength, duration management, credit management and inflation expectations. Modelist’s models incorporate passive strategies as well as strategies that allocate among active managers. In the case of using tradeable securities (12:46), Modelist often relies on exchange-traded funds. At the end of the day, Mr. Mallen says, the objective, regardless of the choice of models tailored for the advisor, is “robotic-type investing based upon what the data says and taking emotion completely out of the equation” (17:09). Toward the end of the conversation (49:51), Mr. Mallen discusses Modelist’s use of artificial intelligence as an investment tool.
 
Turning to market and macroeconomic outlooks (29:45), Mr. Mallen observes markets have “churned up,” leaving equity valuations “pretty extended” amid a “severely inverted” yield curve and signals of a “recession that’s looming” but “still has yet to come.” He notes (30:44) that the Federal Reserve has “done a good job of putting itself in a position where if data does start to get pretty gnarly, they can reverse course. And I think that’s what’s kind of priced in and embedded right now is the fact that people are expecting economic weakness, and, in turn, they are expecting the Fed to react and loosen monetary policy.” 
 
With respect to U.S. stocks (31:15), Mr. Mallen would “like a little bit of a mean reversion” with value “catching up, maybe providing that leadership between now and the end of the year relative to growth. I think growth could use a little bit of a reset. We’ve had seven companies in the S&P drive most of the return so far this year.” In fixed income, he still favors short duration. “Just from an academic perspective, I’m getting a greater yield with less expected volatility than on the longer end of the curve. I’m not as insulated if rates do fall, but I like that kind of conservative approach. Take that 4½% and 5% on the fixed income side of the book – go value.”

TSS Episode 145: Modelist CEO Joseph Mallen on Evidence-Based Investing

Liz Young, head of investment strategy at personal finance company and bank SoFi, discusses markets, the investor movement to DIY investing, and her investment process and market outlook with DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau in this episode recorded Sept. 12, 2023. Their conversation begins with a discussion of Ms. Young’s career (1:06) in the investment industry and her path to SoFi, where she dispenses her economic, investment and market insights to a variety of audiences. Then she discusses the evolution of investors (6:04), away from “high-touch advisory” investment professionals to DIY investing, a movement with which SoFi works to bring education and tools to enable investors’ success. She notes the DIY movement has especially taken hold among younger people and new investors (9:15). For example, while the average age of clients at older brokerages is 55 to 65, 60% of SoFi’s investment clients are 20 to 40.

Turning to the investment process at SoFi (16:35), Ms. Young begins with her assessment of the macroeconomic cycle and whether the market is reflecting that assessment or reflecting something else. If inconsistencies arise between macro and market signals, she says, “in my head it means one of the two is wrong. One of these two data sets is sending the wrong message or the timing is off and then you try to figure out what’s happening.” She warns (21:12) that investors have become conditioned to expect troubles in the capital system will be corrected by an “open-ended insurance program” underwritten by fiscal authorities and central banks. “OK, rates are now up, but (people’s thinking goes) we have this sort of never-ending punch bowl of stimulus if something ever goes wrong. In my eyes, that’s probably the next thing that can’t last forever.” While some observers have theorized the absence of a long-telegraphed recession points to a soft landing, Ms. Young points to historical data (24:23), noting the economy has only recently neared or crossed the average time lags between leading indicator warnings and the advent of recession. Mr. Sherman agrees, adding that even when such average time gaps are crossed, volatility around the average could allow for further delay before the next contraction begins.

TSS Episode 146: SoFi’s Liz Young on Markets, DIY Investing and Capturing Gen Z Investors

DoubleLine ETF Specialist Scott Thomson discusses his role at the firm and describes the growing use and evolution of exchange-traded funds as vehicles for trading and investment with DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman and Macro Asset Allocation Analyst Mark Kimbrough. The discussion begins (1:08) with the career of Mr. Thomson, who joined DoubleLine in 2022 after working as an ETF Capital Markets and Fixed Income Strategist with PIMCO. Mr. Thomson next discusses the history of ETFs (5:29) since the first of this vehicle launched in 1993 and their evolution, a trajectory that began with passive equities funds but now includes fixed income as well as active strategies and commodities, among others. 
 
ETFs (9:11) continue to evolve and diversify, Mr. Thomson says, noting the development of semi-transparent structures and derivative-based strategies. He foresees growth potential in  fund-of-funds strategies, which have long existed in the mutual fund universe, becoming available in ETFs as well as ETFs as a share class of mutual funds. 
 
Mr. Sherman asks Mr. Thomson to discuss his role heading up DoubleLine’s capital markets efforts in ETFs (11:34). Mr. Thomson breaks his role into four areas: primary markets, secondary markets, client execution services and relationship management between authorized participants and market makers.
 
Asked by Mr. Kimbrough to explain the drivers behind the growth in fixed income ETFs (17:09), Mr. Thomson points to a combination of factors, including advisors seeking new and different investment tools, among other reasons, to the implementation of ETF model portfolios, which have grown in number and variety. Asked for advice for people who wish to trade ETFs (22:18), Mr. Thomson advises, “Always use limit orders. Don’t use market orders. That just helps you avoid paying more than you want.” For financial advisors looking to trade more than a couple of hundred shares in an ETF, he recommends they work with their firm’s or custodian’s block trading desk to support best order execution.
 
Mr. Sherman, recalling Mr. Thomson’s comments on the efficiency of the arbitrage mechanism in ETFs, asks the ETF specialist to describe (25:13) the liquidity and efficiency of ETFs amid the dislocation of fixed income markets in March 2020.

TSS Episode 147: DoubleLine’s Scott Thomson on the Evolution of ETFs

Andy Constan, founder, CEO and Chief Investment Officer of Damped Spring, joins DoubleLine’s Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau to discuss his approach to macroeconomics-driven investing. They also discuss, among other timely topics, Mr. Constan’s outlook for persistent inflation above the Federal Reserve’s 2% target. Damped Spring is a full-service macroeconomic research firm. This episode of the Sherman Show was recorded Nov. 20, 2023.
 
DoubleLine Deputy Chief Investment Officer Jeffrey Sherman opens the conversation (0:38), asking Mr. Constan to describe his 35 years in the financial markets, a career that began at Solomon Brothers in 1986 and spans roles at such notable names as Bridgewater Associates and Brevan Howard before the launch of Damped Spring. Then the discussion turns to Mr. Constan’s macroeconomic approach to investment decision making (4:45). Mr. Constan operates with a four-pillar framework. First, he focuses on how growth occurs in an economy and how inflation works on an economy. From those two starting points, he seeks to understand “the risk premium that assets contain and how policymakers and market participants can influence the risk premium, which is the return you get on assets.” Once those three factors come into focus, Mr. Constan overlays a fourth pillar his framework: positioning. “When those three other things are moving, it still matters how people are positioned, what's priced into markets and what's going to cause investors to change their positioning.”
 
Mr. Constan warns against decision-making based on taking risk premiums as objective levels for trade exit or entry (7:18). “There's no level that is the correct level.” Attempting to buy or sell based on perceived whether a term premium is too high or too low can land investors “in a lot of trouble – just as most investors get themselves in a lot of trouble” buying and selling simply because assets are priced above estimates of fair value. “Markets overshoot all the time. It's very difficult to be an investor to base your investment thesis just on the level of valuation. And so the level of risk premium is not that important to me because nobody knows what it is. The only way you can interpret risk premium is through a model. All models have assumptions. All models require assumptions of forward-looking information which is unavailable.” 
 
Instead of focusing on estimated risk premium levels, Mr. Constan’s framework “just focuses on what could change term premiums because that's what you need to know to be an investor. If you think term premiums are going to fall, you want to own assets. If you think term premiums are going to expand, you want to sell assets. And so my framework just focuses on the factors that would cause term premium to change” (8:50). He then describes variables that can change risk premiums. These include changes in the supply of an asset vs. demand for it as well as changes in credit availability and monetary conditions.
 
Jeffrey Sherman then asks Andy Constan for his thoughts on inflation (12:32), noting “perhaps people have not been thinking about the inflation component for, let's call it, over a decade. What are your thoughts about inflation today? What are your thoughts about how investors should incorporate some of this into estimates that raise premiums and hence thinking through the allocation process?” Mr. Constan starts with the fact of falling inflation, under the twin drivers of correcting supply chains and “less easy” monetary policy. A naïve extrapolation of those trends forward would point to inflation soon falling to the Fed’s 2% target or even undershooting it. Mr. Constan, however, expects inflation to a plateau well above 2%. Factors driving resilient above-target inflation, he says, are “a still-very-strong job market,” ample residual reserves “that will keep liquidity high and support demand” and “the three Ds” of de-globalization.

TSS Episode 148: Andy Constan on Macro-Driven Investing, Inflation and the 3Ds of De-Globalization

Jim Bianco, President of market and macroeconomic research firm Bianco Research, appears Jan. 11, 2024, with hosts Jeffrey Sherman and Samuel Lau to discuss among other issues his outlook for a “no landing” U.S. economy in 2024, sticky inflation of 3% to 4% and his theory on Fed Chair Jerome H. Powell’s dovish turn on Dec. 13. “The problem with the economy is there isn’t a problem,” Mr. Bianco says. “My biggest concern is too much growth and sticky inflation.”

Between a hawkish Powell speech on Dec. 1 and Powell’s softened stance on Dec. 13, the data showed no change in economic fundamentals. So what changed his mind? Mr. Bianco notes that Federal Reserve officials prefer unanimous or near-unanimous votes on monetary policy and bank regulations. He suspects “a bunch of doves” among the FOMC’s voting members let Chair Powell know they were prepared to vote in dissent, “and I think he acquiesced.”

Mr. Bianco thinks the biggest change in the economy coming out of 2020 was remote work. On economic fundamentals, he sees little case for “a macro problem with the labor market” or trouble with the consumer. He does note warning signs in credit and the potentially problematic rise of the U.S. government’s interest expense.

Asked about exogenous risks, Mr. Bianco points to attacks on commercial shipping in the Red Sea and the consequent rerouting of 30% to 40% of the world’s cargo shipping from that critical Asia-Europe route to around Africa. Mr. Bianco warns delays will spell inventory trouble not only in Europe but in the U.S.

Mr. Bianco has some criticism of the Federal Reserve. “The Fed first raised rates in March of 2022. What was the year-over-year inflation rate when they finally got to the first rate hike? It was 8.6%. Boy, they waited way, way, way too long before they got it.”

Messrs. Sherman and Lau also discuss with Mr. Bianco why the bond market sometimes is “smarter at sniffing out disaster” than the stock market, the absence of recession despite protracted recessionary warnings from leading indicators and complacency in the credit market.

TSS E149: Bianco on a “No Landing” Economy, Sticky Inflation and Powell Pivot

TSS Episode 149: Bianco on a “No Landing” Economy, Sticky Inflation and Powell Pivot

Jeffrey Sherman, DoubleLine’s Deputy CIO and Sam Lau, DoubleLine’s Asset Allocation Analyst, host a series of podcasts with distinguished guests, giving listeners insight into DoubleLine’s strategies, Portfolio Managers and industry innovators.

TSS Episode 148: Andy Constan on Macro-Driven Investing, Inflation and the 3Ds of De-Globalization

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