My friend David Woods (early 60’s) and his niece Bekah Clements (married mother of three, HR Director) share their story.   David (who served a mission in Switzerland) talks about being gay in Utah, moving away from Utah and leaving the Church, developing a successful multi-faceted career, returning to the Church after being out for several decades, moving back to Utah (where he is currently serving as a temple worker and ward clerk).  It’s a moving and remarkable story.
 
David talks about the difficult road of being gay and LDS and how he did his best to move forward.   Bekah talks about her uncle David and how we can better support and love family members regardless of their church activity.   This podcast is a beautiful love story. 
 
David and I learn—in real time during the podcast—that we crossed paths over 30 years ago.  
 
Bekah, who is a Relief Society teacher in her ward, shares this powerful statement about the need for everyone in our congregations.
 
"For our boat to swing in unison we need you if you have gay or straight children. We need working women and full-time homemakers. We need women with children, those coping with the pain of infertility, and those that will not have children in this life. We need you if you are married, single, divorced, or widowed. We need those who are depressed, those who deal with crippling anxiety as well as those who can lift the burden of those in the pit of despair. We want those who have a temple recommend, those that have never had a recommend, and those who are working to get to a place where they can renew their recommend. We need introverts just as much as we need extroverts in this boat. Those with strong testimonies, wavering testimonies, and those who have never gained a testimony belong in our boat. There is a seat in the boat for converts, investigators, and those who come from pioneer stock. We need those dealing with crippling illnesses as much as we need those in perfect health. We need women of all colors, ethnicities, sexual orientations, and political affiliations. If you can fight the fight we need you as much as those who can make peace. We need those whose husbands struggle with pornography addiction. We need you if you are overweight or stick thin. If you are suffering with substance abuse or can be the support system for someone who is, we need you on our team. We need those that cook and bake as well as those who support Door Dash. We need you if your husband is a righteous active priesthood holder, an inactive priesthood holder, or does not hold the priesthood at all. We need those with a million dollars in the bank and those who are living paycheck to paycheck. We need those who want to be in the boat as well as those who don’t. (from her FB post:  https://www.facebook.com/rebekah.w.clements/posts/10158824393103810)
 
Thank you David and Bekah for being on the podcast. You are two of my heroes! Your insights bring us healing and together as the same human family.

** Please Check Out My New Book At: ** 

Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/p/listen-learn-and-love-embracing-lgbtq-latter-day-saints 

Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1462135773

Episode 404: David Woods(Gay Latter-Day Saint) and his niece Bekah Clements (Ally)

My friend Sharlee Mullins Glenn (noted author, former adjunct faculty at BYU, committed Latter-day Saint, married mother of 5, founder and former Executive Director of MWEG) joins us to talk about her important and groundbreaking new book, an expansive epic poem full of imagination and possibilities, centering the feminine divine.

In the words of Fiona Givens, Sharlee’s epic poem “is an ambitious and beautiful rendering of Latter-day Saint beliefs and yearnings regarding the feminine divine, the ethos of existence, and the centrality of agency, relationships and love.”

Some of the ideas Sharlee shared include:

1) Her book is fiction--a blending of theology, science, and imagination
2) It is an offering of imagination, and does not purport to set forth doctrine
3) Imagination is a spiritual gift and reflects God's divine nature
4)The inclusion of the feminine divine was driven by two burning questions: a. Where are the women in the grand, ancient story of our beginnings, and b. What good is a doctrine if we never speak of it or seek greater light and knowledge concerning it? 
5) Her hope is that her "offering of imagination" will prompt others to examine the boundaries of their own paradigms and consider new possibilities
6) Heavenly Mother “will be unveiled again”
 
This is a unique and insightful podcast focused on a book (which is a beautiful poem) that is a reimagining of the entire scope of existence, centering the feminine divine and the preeminence of love. I learned so much from Sharlee and encourage our listeners to read her book and share it with others.
 
Links: 
 
Amazon:  www.amazon.com/dp/1961471205/
Barnes and Noble:  www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1147162041

Episode 828: Sharlee Mullins Glenn, New Book “Brighter and Brighter Until the Perfect Day”

*** This episode talks about suicide.  If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 ***
 
My friend Jenn Curtis (late 40s, lives in California, experiences same-sex attraction) joins us to share her powerful story out of a desire to help others including:
 
* Sexual assault survivor which led to unhealthy coping behaviors and immense shame

* Falsely concluding “God is disappointed in me”

* Falsely concluding (at age 17) that death would be a better option

* Feeling unlovable and that “no one could love the real me”

* Finding more hope—but two subsequent decades of living in a “form of internal hell”

* Powerful spiritual experience where God told her she is a “bullfighter”

* Honest about sexual orientation with God, herself, and husband

* Helpful friends—part of the process to remove shame

* As friends loved/accepted her, Jenn considered “I might be lovable—and God may love me too”

* My story is a “beautiful love story”

* Finding joy

* Powerful EFY experience

* North Star

This is a super-powerful, spiritual, and vulnerable podcast providing principles to help us better understand God’s love, how shame has no place in the Gospel, and how Jesus helps heal us.   If you are in a hard spot, please listen to Jenn’s story.   It will give you more hope.  And if you are looking to better support our SSA/LGBTQ friends, please listen and share Jenn’s podcast.

Thank you for being on the podcast, Jenn!  You are so brave—you are bullfighter—and your courage is helping so many!

Links: 
youtube.com/@LatterdayWomenWarriors

https://www.northstarsaints.org/voh-jenn

www.youtube.com/@TheApocrypharules 

www.northstarsaints.org/voices-of-hope-profiles

North Star:  www.northstarsaints.org/

Jenn’s Facebook:  www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007513065761

Episode 829: Jenn Curtis, New North Star President, Powerful Story

My friend Nikki Andreasky (BYU-I grad, lives in AZ, they/them) joins us to share their story including:
 
* Long-term gender dysphoria/chest dysphoria—and prayerful decision to have top surgery

* Love of the temple

* Learning of the handbook changes (Aug 2024) for transgender members weeks before the surgery leading to feelings of “being stabbed in the gut”, “betrayed” and “really hurt”

* Meeting with local leaders

* Proceeding with the top surgery—feelings of gender euphoria
Pain of not being able to attend the temple and no chance of temple sealing

* How North Star gave them a spiritual boost

* Why they stay in the Church

* Supportive mothers—grandma’s scriptures
 
Nikki is one of my heroes—for their spiritual/emotional maturity and navigating an incredible complex road as a non-binary Latter-day Saint.   I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode so we can better understand, love and support non-binary/transgender Latter-day Saints.   I believe they are needed members of the Body of Christ.
 
Thank you for being on the podcast, Nikki.  You are awesome.
 
Links: 
 
North Star Voices of Hope:  www.northstarsaints.org/voh-nikki-2022
 
Earlier Listen Learn and Love Podcast:  soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-320-lynsie-andreasky-active-lds-asexual-aromantic-and-gender-queer/sets
 
Nikki’s Tic Tok:  www.tiktok.com/@scattering_sunshine?_t=ZT-8w1g82Dlqsl&_r=1
 
Nikki’s Facebook:  www.facebook.com/share/16HB8rwVrQ/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Episode 830: Nikki Andreasky, Non-Binary/Trans Latter-day Saint, Super Brave

My friend Aiden Kelly (he/him, trans man, age 23, future in theatre) and my friend Annalee Kelly (married mother of 4, RM, active LDS, from Idaho Falls) join us to share their story.  
 
Aiden starts and talks about:
 
* Immense pain of gender dysphoria

* Writing in his journal—and sharing that journal entry with his mother as a way to come out as a boy

* Knowing sharing his pain with others would be key to getting help and making his future possible

* How hormone treatment and top surgery ended the pain and have him hope

* Parents support

* Glad he is alive.   Has hope and a future.

* Advice to others who are suicidal/have no hope.
 
Annalee then shares about:
 
* The long-term hatred Aiden had for his body (hair pulling, pounding on his chest, etc)

* Asking advice from his Bishop (good experience)

* Had to put Aiden’s life ahead of my original dreams/hopes

* Generally positive ward and family support

* Starting Open Arms of Idaho

* Pain of the August 2024 transgender handbook policy update

* “Aiden is a masterpiece”

* Aiden’s Father support
 
Aiden is one of my heroes—a brave, talented, a good man—with a wonderful future.   I’m glad you are alive Aiden and thank you for your courage to share your story.   You give hope to others.  
 
And thank you Annalee for helping us know we can love and support our LGBTQ friends and family—and how that is part of responsibility as Latter-day Saints and followers of Jesus.    Thank you for all the work you and your team is doing in the Idaho Falls area to bring more love and understanding.   You are all some of my heroes.
 
You are a beautiful family.  And your story will help so many.
 
Links:
 
Open Arms of Idaho:  openarmsidaho.org/
 
Open Arms of Idaho Instagram:  @openarmsidaho
 
Open Arms of Idaho Facebook:  www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089047401155

Episode 831:  Aiden Kelly (Transgender Man) and Annalee Kelly (His Supportive LDS Mother)

My friend Lilly MacKenzie (who was on Episode 765) joins us to update listeners on her journey—including her spiritual journey (which includes more about her purpose, her belief in the Church, and her mission to help others).

Lilly also talks about how the August 2024 transgender handbooks updates negatively impacted her—and how/why she continues to be a deeply committed and believing Latter-day Saint.   She also talks about the support/support groups that help her.   And she talks about how her emotional health is so much better since transitioning.

Thank you, Lilly, for being on the podcast.   You are brave.  You are helping so many. 
 
Links:

June 2025 Gather Conference:  www.gather-conference.com/

Lilly’s earlier episode (765):  podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-765-lilly-mackenzie-transgender-latter-day/id1347971725?i=1000661805297

Episode 832: Lilly MacKenzie, Transgender BYU Student

*** This episode talks about suicide.  If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 ***
 
My friend Isaac Durfey (lives in Utah County, Age 34, Adopted, Active Latter-day Saint) bravely joins us to share his story which includes:
 
* Being bullied

* Being suicidal

* Working through pornography

* Convicted of being a sex offender and spending 4.5 years in prison

* Leaving prison—what he learned, why he isn’t going back, finding hope

* Accepting he is gay—but doesn’t define him

* Talented musician

* Great/supportive parents

* Role of friends to help him feel he is loved and needed

* Great YSA Wards

* Hopes for his future including the Melchizedek Priesthood and Temple Endowment
 
Thank you, Isaac, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story—stories like yours help others find hope.   Thanks for helping all understand our Heavenly Parents love all of us and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives hope, heals and helps us move forward.   You are a good man.
 
Links:
 
Isaac on Instagram:  @durfsmurf25

Episode 833: Isaac Durfey, Black/Gay Latter-day Saint,  Super Brave

My friends Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, and McArthur Krishna join us to talk about their new book “Mother in Heaven: A Gospel Topics Essay Study Guide.” The book is exactly what the title says: a study guide for the Church's Gospel Topics essay on Heavenly Mother.  
The book authors talk about the spiritual benefits in our lives of learning about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother and why She matters.
 
This book is aligned with official Church statements and teachings about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. The authors hope that it helps people seeking our Mother in Heaven to spiritually connect with Her so She is real, intentional, and active in our lives and in Church conversations. 
 
Thank you, Ashli, Trina and McArthur, for your needed work. I was deeply moved by your insights and good hearts. 
 
I encourage everyone to read this book.
 
Links:
 
Mother in Heaven Study Guide:   www.amazon.com/dp/1734228725
 
Cherish 1: The Joy of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1948218879
 
Cherish 2: The Love of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228733
 
A Girl's Guide to Heavenly Mother:  www.deseretbook.com/product/5258047.html
 
A Boy's Guide to Heavenly Mother:  www.deseretbook.com/product/5258052.html
 
Combined IG account: @heavenlymothermatters

Personal IG accounts: @ashlicarnicelli  @libraryhouseediting  @mcarthurkrishna_creates     

Library House Editing page with links to the gospel topics essay footnotes and some other resources: https://libraryhouseediting.com/?page_id=741

Episode 834: Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, McArthur Krishna: New Book about Heavenly Mother

My friends Shirley Washenko (sexual abuse survivor/advocate) and Sage Williams (MSc, RN, long-time advocate) joins us to talk about their new, groundbreaking and needed book (published by Deseret Book) called “Healing after Sexual Abuse, A Latter-day Saint Perspective”.

The book has these powerful chapters:

1) Establishing Identity
2) Uncovering Wounds
3) Embracing Agency
4) Differentiating Healing Journeys
5) Responding to Anger with Integrity
6) The Core:  Connection
7) It Takes “an Angel” to Speak the Truth
8) Grief:  Linking, Past Present, and Future
9) Forgiveness in a New Light
10) The Healing Journey

This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on healing after sexual abuse.   Shirley and Sage (from their respective experiences) bring new, impactful, and practical insights to help heal from sexual abuse.    The book will help sexual abuse survivors and also the rest of us as we learn better tools to help them.

I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others.

Thank you, Shirley and Sage, for your life-saving work to bring hope and healing.   You are two of my heroes.  Honored to have you on the podcast!

Links:
Web Site:  www.healingaftersexualabuse.com/
Deseret Book:  www.deseretbook.com/product/P6078641.html
Amazon:  www.amazon.com/dp/1639934219

Episode 835:  Shirley Washenko and Sage Williams, New Book:  “Healing after Sexual Abuse”

My friends McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel (authors, BYU grads, advocates for those on the margins) join us to talk about their important new book (at Deseret Book and Amazon) called “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion”
The podcast/book covers important topics:
How revelation is “scattered”
How women led changing the Church Institution with Primary and Relief Society
How most of the change we can impact is in our local area around culture
Anne’s racial awakening—and her desire to help people of other races feel belonging
The “Back Yard Principle”
Supporting those who leave the church
Why McArthur and Anne (knowing all the complicated issues) stay in the Church
Why McArthur hopes the Church her daughters are raised in is different than the Church she was raised in—and how we should embrace change
Importance of personal authority
If you are looking to improve church culture to better create Zion so more feel welcome, I encourage you to read/share this book.   It has real-life stories and perspectives/principles to help each of us.   I wish I had read a book like this a long time ago.  
I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others.
Thank you, McArthur and Anne, for your needed work in our community.   Honored to have you on the podcast!
Links:
Amazon:  www.amazon.com/dp/1560855185
Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/6085124.html
McArthur IG:  @mcarthurkrishna_creates
McArthur FB:  www.facebook.com/mcarthur.mcarthurfreeranger
Heavenly Mother Matters IG:  @heavenlymothermatters
Anne IG:  @the.vision.beautiful
James Jones Online Course:  btbacademy.thinkific.com/courses/lds-anti-racism-101-abandoning-attitudes-and-actions-of-prejudice 
Chapter on How We Should Treat People Who Leave the Church:  https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zkupzyte3lqqtxla6q9y1/Chapter-4-How-Should-We-Treat-Those-Who-Leave-the-Church.pdf?rlkey=w00hdkyywo5m9dyg1uwscqbxm&dl=0

Episode 836:  McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel, New Book, “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion”

My friend Darren Parry (Shoshone Leader, Adjust Professor at Utah State and University of Utah, Author) joins us to talk about his new book called “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World” which talks about values from the lens of our Indigenous friends to help understand and solve today’s problems. 

Darren talks about his own history (including his ancestors) using real life examples on how “Indigenous Wisdom” helps see and solve problems bringing us together as the same human family.  
 
I am deeply moved by Darren’s insights/soft heart and work to build bridges.    I’m honored to have served as Darren’s companion during our missions in England 45 years ago as I had the chance to see Darren’s love for the people of England (and love for me—his new junior companion).
 
I encourage everyone to reach Darren’s book—for timeless values to help bring us together.    Thank you to our friends at BCC Press for publishing Darren’s book.
 
Thank you, Darren, for being on the podcast and your needed work in our world!
 
Links:
 
Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/1961471248
 
Darren’s  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/darren.parry.7

Episode 837:  Darren Parry, New Book, “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World”

Welcome to our podcast!   

My name is Richard H. Ostler and I am a native of Salt Lake City, small business owner, married father of six with several grandchildren.  I believe in and am deeply committed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and want it to work for a wider group.
I am the author of three books: 

“Listen Learn and Love:  Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints” published in 2020 available at Deseret Book (deseretbook.com/product/5248297.html) and Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462135773) 

“Listen Learn and Love:  Improving Latter-day Saint Culture” published in 2022.  The book explores who we can do better to help all Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, needed and a feeling of belonging in our congregations.  Available at Deseret Book (deseretbook.com/product/6003149.html) and Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462139566)

“Listen Learn and Love:  Building the Good Ship Zion” released in Sept 2023.  The book explores additional topics to help all Latter-day Saint feel welcome and needed on the Good Ship Zion.  Available at Deseret Book (deseretbook.com/product/6026921.html) and Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462145280)

The purpose of all three books is to help us better create Zion by helping more feel welcome, a sense of belonging, and needed in our congregations.  

Proceed from the books go the Stockton Power Memorial Scholarship (www.standingforstockton.com) in honor of Stockton Powers a gay Latter-day Saint teenager who died of suicide in 2016.   Everything I do is a self-funded labor of love ❤️

I am the author of two Ensign articles:

‘How the Savior’s Healing Power Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin’ (August 2020/YSA Digital Only) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

 ‘7 Tips for Overcoming Pornography Use’ (October, page 72) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use.   

This podcast is designed to discuss some more complicated issues in our church to help all of us better “listen, learn and love” so we can minister in a more effective way to all of our Heavenly Parents’ children.

Podcasts are indexed by category at listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

Thank you for joining us.   You can't donate to this podcast.  There are no sponsors.   But you can leave a review/rate the podcast on the platform you are listening and/or leave a review at Deseret Book/Amazon on my books.

With love, Richard 'Papa' Ostler ❤

Twitter: twitter.com/Papa_Ostler
IG: www.instagram.com/papa_ostler
Facebook:  facebook.com/richard.ostler.5
E-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com

Episode 404: David Woods(Gay Latter-Day Saint) and his niece Bekah Clements (Ally)

Richard Ostler

Related tracks