A common theme in these interviews (which I enjoy) are that the same sex attracted husband doesn't want to be labelled. And I think this may be because calling oneself gay would be terrifying in a religion that vilifies same sex relationships. I also firmly believe and understand that one can't be talked or analyzed out of the consequences of mixed orientation marriages. It remains difficult for the straight wife who is usually deeply in love with her queer husband. Not all mixed orientation marriages fail but the suffering, which cannot be analysed out of anyone, can be tremendous. I wish you both luck.

Also 'living one's truth'  is only the truth that is allowed by the Mormon Church sadly. I hope Anne knows she can leave if ever she needs to and it doesn't make her less.

My friends Loren (PhD in Counseling Psychology from BYU) and Anne (Master in Marriage and Family Therapy from BYU) share their story.   Loren, who knew he was not straight from an early age, shares his journey of self-discovery and understanding and why he identifies as Queer—a recent development—and the personal revelation that led him to accepting that label for himself.  Loren and Anne also discuss falling in love and their decision to get married and Loren being open about his orientation—describing being able to “show up as my full authentic self”.

Loren, who is a licensed psychologist at Washington State University, also talks about his identical twin brother who is gay and married to a man.  Loren shares about how close he is with his twin and how strong their relationship is, but also helps us understand that his story is different from his brother's story and how we shouldn’t try to complete other’s stories—but create space for the uniqueness of each story.

If you want to better understand your own story as a LGBTQ Latter-day Saint or better understand others, please listen to this podcast.   Loren and Anne offer wonderful and unique insights —merging their personal stories and profession insights to help bring more understanding.   

Loren is also the author of this excellent article about the creation and use of identity labels, written while he was at BYU:  https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1554&context=irp

Thank you Loren and Anne for being on the podcast.  You two are awesome!

Episode 428: Loren (Queer) and Anne Brown (Straight/Demisexual),  Married Latter-day Saint Couple

This episode is guest-hosted by my friend, Tonya Miller. Tonya was on episode 501 and wrote the third chapter in my most recent book, called “Ministering To Those With Church-Generated Pain or Trauma.” 
 
Tonya interviews Dr. Cameron Staley, Ph.D., who talks about his most recent book: “Confessions of an LDS Sex Researcher.” Cameron is a clinical psychologist who is currently working in private practice. He is an active member of the Church, and he and his wife have 4 children. Cameron talks about his research, discovering that unwanted pornography viewing may be more of a compulsion rather than an addiction. The implications of this led him to create self-directed programs including “Life After Pornography” and the “Life After Pornography Coach” app, based on research supported treatments for reducing compulsive pornography viewing.
 
Cameron talks about how he hopes his book will help shift views around sexuality and its intersection with religion. He also describes his experiences navigating his psychology training while maintaining his religious beliefs, even at times when these two spaces seemed to be incompatible. He talks about recognizing the benefits that both of these perspectives bring to informing our understanding of sexuality and mental health. He has seen the challenges associated with working through gender and sexual identity issues, pornography concerns, and shares ideas about how working through these experiences can exist while also growing our testimonies and efforts in being disciples of Jesus Christ.
 
Cameron also describes how his work as a psychologist has helped him develop a greater love towards God, his “neighbors,” and himself, and shares examples of ways that diversity enriches our opportunities to develop Christlike love. I am grateful to Cameron for his expertise, as well as his openminded and openhearted approach to teaching us more about these topics. You can learn more about his counseling services and free resources on his website, listed below.
 
As a side note, I’m focusing on stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care). 
 
Richard 'Papa' Ostler
 
Links:
 
www.cameronstaley.com
 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CTSPNGSD
 
https://www.lifeafterpornography.com/sales-page33509805
 
https://getyourmarriageon.com/life-after-pornography-coach/

Episode 746:  Cameron Staley, Ph.D. – New Book “Confessions of an LDS Sex Researcher.”

My friend James Smart (RM, age 20, from Rexburg Idaho, Santa Rosa CA missionary, at BYU) joins us to bravely share his story.   James starts with reading his powerful and well-written coming out post sharing his story growing up knowing he was different, dealing with shame and associated coping mechanisms, deciding to serve a mission, and finding great healing and hope on his mission.   It is a deeply authentic story of being honest, vulnerable, finding God, and finding peace that James is exactly who God created and wants him to be. 
 
We then discuss his coming out post and his future.  
 
I was so moved listening to James and his courage to be open and his ability to help others find God, remove shame, and find hope in their lives.   I was also moved by James spiritual maturity and understanding of core gospel principles to navigate his future.
 
If you are a LGBTQ Latter-day Saint, a parent of a queer child, an ally, or a local leader—I encourage you to listen to James’ story and share it with others.   Thank you, James, for being on the podcast.  You are a good man and will continue to bless many lives.   Honored to have you on the podcast.
 
Links:
 
James Google Document:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yK07P9h3mNY9YxdzYhmmHRdAW7uyaH1TWAUbIikPhcw/edit?fbclid=IwAR38ebW2wd3DbxKLYhGNoHc3Y4xl1Qs5xxnH3g2Twb09_pYQpGZduTYdB34
 
James’ e-mail:  jimmydsmart@gmail.com
 
James’ cell:  208-390-7722
 
James’ Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100020344095709
 
James’ Instagram:  @james.d.smart

Episode 747: James Smart, Gay Latter-day Saint, Recent RM, BYU Student

My friend Nate Miller (grew up in Davis County, lives in Salt Lake County, Philippines RM, U of U graduation, no longer attending church) joins us to share his story.   Nate starts with reading a powerful journal entry/letter during his mission that shares his journey (since age 6) of navigating being different and eventually realizing he is gay.   

Nate is so vulnerable, honest—with a gift of words to share his journey.  I was so moved with Nate’s courage to be so honest—which helps us better understand what it is like to be alone figuring out one’s sexual orientation—and gives us insights what we can do to improve our culture to better support our queer friends.
 
Nate talks about finding hope about his future and his family’s unconditional love and support.   Nate also talks about advice he would give to his younger self “who was listening five years ago”.    
 
Like many of our episodes, I continue to be moved by brave people willing to share their stories out of love to help others find hope in their lives.   I was also moved by Nate’s family and their words of unconditional love and support—this is a beautiful family love story. 
 
This is also a good podcast on principles to keep the family circle together and strong when a family member steps away from the church.
 
Thank you, Nate, for your courage to be on the podcast.  You are a good man—your story will help so many.   You have a great life ahead of you.   All my love and respect to you and the Miller family.

Links:  Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints:  www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Nate Miler on Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/nate.miller.129142

Nate Miller on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/itsnertme/

Episode 748: Nate Miller, Gay, Age 26

My friends Cameo and Cooper Johnson (LDS parents of 4 children, live in Flagstaff AZ, Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioners) join us to share their story from the perspective of both LDS parents of a queer daughter (RM, engaged to another RM woman) and their professional work specializing in supporting LDS LGBTQ individuals and families.   In the episode, the Johnsons bring unique and helpful perspectives from their experience as parents and also work as mental health practitioners that help all of us.  
 
Some of the topics covered by the Johnsons include:
 
1.  Why they are excited and supportive of their daughter’s same-sex marriage.
2.  Why they stay members of the Church.
3.  What gives them hope and peace for their “eternal family”.
4.  What gives them hope for the future of the Church.
5.  The difference between core values and core beliefs.
6.  How to better see and support families who fit “outside of the idealized version”.
7.  The parable of the Good Samaritan.
8.  How personal growth often occurs “when we look inward and check ourselves.”
 
This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done as the Johnsons bring their clinical experience and parental experience to help us better love and support our queer family members and friends.  I encourage you to listen to this episode and share it with others.  
 
Thank you, Cameo and Cooper Johnson, for being on the podcast and your work to help bring us together as the same human family.  Honored to have you on the podcast!
 
Links:
 
Cameo Johnson, PMHNP
Ponderosa Psychiatry
https://www.ponderosapsychiatry.com/
info@ponderosapsychiatry.com
Psychology Today Profile: https://www.psychologytoday.com/profile/737606
 
Cooper Johnson, PMHNP
Advanced Mental Health and Wellness
https://advancedmhw.com/
support@advancedmhw.com
Psychology Today Profile: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/psychiatrists/advanced-mental-health-wellness-williams-az/441627

Episode 749: Cameo & Cooper Johnson, LDS Parents of a Queer Daughter

**This episode talks about suicide.  If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988**
 
My friend Erik Thompson (Age 40, single, active LDS, RM) bravely shares his story with a heart full of desire to give others hope.   Erik vulnerable and bravely talks about:
 
Being a survivor of sexual abuse at age 13.
Spiritual OCD (Scrupulosity).
Porn and masturbation.
Coming home from his mission (after a suicide attempt) at 9 months.
Need for love and belonging.
Becoming sexually active—in unsafe situations—drug use—and more suicidal ideation.
Healing words from a senior Church leader including the “Savior is thrilled with you” and returning to Church activity.
You are here to love.
Upcoming NorthStar Conference.
 
Erik can authentically teach the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal us from pain and to help us repent because Erik has the courage to share his story—helping us all understand that we too can find hope in our story—even the most difficult times of our lives.   Part of Erik’s story is on the Church’s YouTube channel (see show notes).
 
Thank you, Erik, for being on the podcast.   You are one of my new heroes.   Your story will help so many.   You are a good man.
 
Links:
 
Erik’s Church YouTube:  youtu.be/7avoFnympIg?si=vEBk7_YX709HGqfM
 
NorthStar Conference:  allevents.in/salt%20lake%20city/2024-north-star-conference/10000761893222137
 
Erik’s e-mail:  erikguy@gmail.com
 
Erik’s cell:  202-595-4747
 
TikTok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@etpiano83?_t=8lNeC55a9hC&_r=1
 
Scrupulosity Podcasts:  listenlearnandlove.org/depression-mental-illness-podcasts
 
Richard Ostler Free Chapter Links:
 
Ending Porn Use:  www.dropbox.com/s/w2ex40l4se85wku/Chapter%204%20Ending%20Pornography%20Use.%20%20Listen%20Learn%20and%20Love%2C%20Improving%20Latter-day%20Saint%20Culture.pdf?dl=0
 
Hope Filled Repentance:  www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1lo38ejspdzwfxngaaotm/Chapter-5-Hope-Filled-Repentance.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Lattter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=18kd8tqtmls60b14y7ilc1f2i&dl=0
 
Overcoming Scrupulosity:  www.dropbox.com/s/i314vw5im0khzia/Chapter%207%20Overcoming%20Scrupulosity%20%28Religious%20ODC%29.pdf?dl=0

Episode 750:  Erik Thompson, Gay Latter-day Saint,  Overcoming Addiction,  Finding Hope in Christ

My friend Jashon Ray Fabia (Age 33, single, LDS, RM, BYU-H grad in Psychology and Music, finishing Master's in Music Therapy) bravely shares his story as a queer Filipino Latter-day Saint (our first guest from the Philippines) and his new book (see show notes).
 
Jashon shares the shame he felt which continued until he came out to himself in his mid-20’s and others allowing Jashon to feel authentic and reduce/eliminate shame.   It is a brave story of working through suicidal ideation to find hope and peace.    Jashon talks about his focus on service to help other marginalized group, future projects and hopes for other queer Filipinos.
 
Jashon concludes with reconciliation with his parents including grace with family members along this journey.    Thank you, Jashon, for being on the podcast, writing your book, and sharing your story to give hope to others.   You are a good man doing much healing in our world.   Glad to have you on the podcast.
 
Links:
 
Jashon’s book:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/1948218917
 
Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Episode 751: Jashon Fabia, Author: “Swirling in the Eddy: LDS, Filipino, & Gay”

** This podcast mentions suicide.  If you are suicidal, please call/text chat 988**

Guest host Tonya Miller interviews Kyle Jones, M.D., who talks about his most recent book, “When All Hope Seems Lost: A Gospel Perspective on Mental Illness in Youth,” which will be released later this month. Kyle is a Family Practice physician who works primarily with neurodivergent individuals and their families. He is active in the Church, and he and his wife are the parents of four children.
 
Kyle shares his story of first being diagnosed with mental illness as a student, with significant worsening during his medical residency. This is the topic of his first book: “Fallible: A Memoir of a Young Physician’s Struggle with Mental Illness.” He talks about noticing mood disorder symptoms when he was a teenager, but not realizing that he was dealing with mental illness at the time. The cumulative effects of the stress he experienced as a medical student and resident led him to eventually learn that he was living with anxiety and depression, for which he still takes medication and participates in therapy. Kyle describes ways that he started to share his story with other physicians and learned that he was not as alone as he feared. From there, he has continued to develop opportunities for providing outreach and education about mental illness, especially for members of the Church. He began to realize that there are not many resources about mental illness for youth in the Church, along with ongoing myths and stigma about the relation of mental illness to the gospel, which led him to write this book.
 
Kyle describes the complexities that youth in the Church face, and ways that specific gospel principles can help them heal, even when, in some cases, there is no “cure” for what they are dealing with. He shares stories of teens who have worked though challenges with mental illness that he interviewed for his book. He also interviewed mental health professionals who work with teens and talks about some of the insights they provide. Kyle refers to what he calls the “Broken Record” messages of the gospel that can bolster youth who fear they have done something “wrong” to “cause” their mental illness. They are: 1) Jesus loves you, no matter what, 2) Mental illness is not your fault, and 3) There are people here to help.
 
I am very grateful for Kyle’s willingness to share his story and perspectives around ways that principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ can ground and empower youth if they are experiencing mental illness while simultaneously navigating the complexities of life. 
 
As a side note, I’m focusing only on sharing stories associated with the Queer-LDS experience now. However, if you would like to share your story about a different Church- or gospel-related topic on Listen, Learn and Love, please contact Tonya about the possibility of working with her as my guest-host (e-mail Tonya at tonya@cottonwood.care). 
 
Links for Kyle’s books and other resources are found below.
www.kylebradfordjones.com
Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram: @kbjones11   
Previous books: www.amazon.com/stores/Kyle-Bradford-Jones/author/B082WKSNYY?
When All Hope Seems Lost:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CYCXFVB9

Episode 752: Kyle Jones, M.D., Author

My friend Arthur Wiseman (who returned from his successful mission in Gilbert Arizona in Dec of 2023, plans to become a therapist, and returned to live in Arizona) shares his mission experience.   Arthur (who knew he was gay since age 6 and planned to tell no one) shares what it was like starting his mission and feeling spiritual promptings (many times during his mission) to open up about being gay because of a desire to help others find hope and Christ in their lives.
 
Arthur talks about a variety of wonderful, spiritual, and sometimes painful experiences only possible because he was open.  Arthur talks about developing a strong relationship with Heavenly Father and making Christ the center of his life.  He talks about the personal revelation he is receiving.    Arthur also talks about how being vulnerable allowed him to be a safe place for his companions to open up about their lives—providing beautiful insights on how to better minister to each other.    Arthur talks about his supportive companions and what they proactively did to show their support.
 
This is a powerful podcast from a brave and faithful gay Latter-day Saint.   Arthur (and all those allies who support him) give me hope for the future as we work to build Zion.   Thank you for being on the podcast Authur.   Honored that more can hear your story.   You are a good man.
 
Links:
 
Facebook:  www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61555422532064
 
Instagram:  @arthur.w.wiseman
 
Facebook Group mentioned in the podcast:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/706348281603277

Facebook Group to Support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Episode 753: Arthur Wiseman, Recently Returned Gay LDS Missionary

My good brother David (author of “Bridges: Ministering to Those Who Question”) joins us to talk about his new book which gives readers a gospel-based framework and tools to navigate the increasingly polarized and contentious landscape of modern society.    
 
In the podcast, David talks about why he wrote the book, who is the audience, and how he hopes it helps us better come together as the same human family.  David talks in a practical way of the skills and approaches to eliminate contention and become peacemakers.   
 
If you are feeling tensions of conflict with family, friends, fellow church members—or want to better ministering tools to bring people together,  I invite you to read/share David’s book.  It is a serious book needed in a divisive time—packed with the latest information from the finest minds, research, and scriptural/church leader insights to help heal our divides.
 
Thank you, Dave, for all your great work in our community to bring us together.   
 
Links:
 
Dave’s book on Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/158958774X
 
Dave’s book on Amazon (Kindle):  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CZ4R7S2T
 
Dave’s book at Kofford Books:  https://gregkofford.com/products/healing-our-divides
 
Dave’s e-mail:  healingourdivides@gmail.com

Episode 754: David Ostler “Healing our Divides: Answering the Savior’s Call to be Peacemakers.”

My friends Kate Kendrick (she/her) and her non-binary child Morgan (they/them) join us to share their story.  Kate, who is no longer active LDS, joins us to talk about her journey to become an LGBTQ ally and then fully love and accept her sixteen-year-old non-binary/pansexual child who goes by the pseudonym "Morgan." (who is age 16). It is a beautiful family love story. Kate offers helpful principles and perspective for parents to love and support their queer children.
 
Kate also talks about her decision to no longer participate in the Church and what we can do to build bridges of understanding between those in the Church and those who have left the Church.   Kate is not asking other people to leave the Church—rather, she is suggesting what we can do to bring both parties together as members of the same human family.   
 
Morgan, who is wise beyond their years, talks about what gives them hope and shares their advice to queer people who have less more. struggle with those who don't accept their sexuality/gender identity and/or are feeling suicidal.    
 
Thank you, Kate and Morgan, for being on the podcast. Your story helps us learn how to better support others.  
 
Links:  TikTok Page: @Midlife Exmo Momma -- Please note that, though Kate truly makes an effort to build bridges between members and former members of the Church, some content may not feel appropriate for those seeking to build their testimony of the Church. Please use discretion when watching her videos.

Episode 755: Kate Kendrick and her non-binary child Morgan

Welcome to our podcast!   

My name is Richard H. Ostler and I am a native of Salt Lake City, small business owner, married father of six with several grandchildren.  I believe in and am deeply committed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and want it to work for a wider group.
I am the author of three books: 

“Listen Learn and Love:  Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints” published in 2020 available at Deseret Book (deseretbook.com/product/5248297.html) and Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462135773) 

“Listen Learn and Love:  Improving Latter-day Saint Culture” published in 2022.  The book explores who we can do better to help all Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, needed and a feeling of belonging in our congregations.  Available at Deseret Book (deseretbook.com/product/6003149.html) and Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462139566)

“Listen Learn and Love:  Building the Good Ship Zion” released in Sept 2023.  The book explores additional topics to help all Latter-day Saint feel welcome and needed on the Good Ship Zion.  Available at Deseret Book (deseretbook.com/product/6026921.html) and Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462145280)

The purpose of all three books is to help us better create Zion by helping more feel welcome, a sense of belonging, and needed in our congregations.  

Proceed from the books go the Stockton Power Memorial Scholarship (www.standingforstockton.com) in honor of Stockton Powers a gay Latter-day Saint teenager who died of suicide in 2016.   Everything I do is a self-funded labor of love ❤️

I am the author of two Ensign articles:

‘How the Savior’s Healing Power Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin’ (August 2020/YSA Digital Only) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

 ‘7 Tips for Overcoming Pornography Use’ (October, page 72) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use.   

This podcast is designed to discuss some more complicated issues in our church to help all of us better “listen, learn and love” so we can minister in a more effective way to all of our Heavenly Parents’ children.

Podcasts are indexed by category at listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

Thank you for joining us.   You can't donate to this podcast.  There are no sponsors.   But you can leave a review/rate the podcast on the platform you are listening and/or leave a review at Deseret Book/Amazon on my books.

With love, Richard 'Papa' Ostler ❤

Twitter: twitter.com/Papa_Ostler
IG: www.instagram.com/papa_ostler
Facebook:  facebook.com/richard.ostler.5
E-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com

Episode 428: Loren (Queer) and Anne Brown (Straight/Demisexual), Married Latter-day Saint Couple

Richard Ostler

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