Both my guests for this episode have appeared on the #HRTechChat video podcast previously - and it only made sense to host the two of them this time, at the same time. Why? Betterworks CEO Doug Dennerline and Vice President of HR Transformation Jamie Aitken have co-authored and published a book titled "Make Work Better," and our discussion revolved around it.

Let's get something out of the way first. Employers have six ways to Sunday to make work better: make scheduling better for work-life balance, make onboarding better for immediate employee engagement (and faster time-to-productivity), make payroll better so employees get paid incorrectly less often, make on-the-job learning better so staff can build their careers...

Have I missed anything? Probably, and we've been talking about how to make work better for years. Over 10 years ago, when I worked with executives at one of the well-known vendors of technology for workforce management, we argued (correctly) in our thought leadership that you could make work better for retail associates by modernizing WFM systems.

The list goes on. You could start anywhere to make work better. One of the best places to start to make work better, however, is by upending tired old approaches to measuring and assessing employees' performance. More specifically, the central tenet of Doug and Jamie's book is that you can make work much, much better by dispensing with performance management that revolves around the tedious annual performance review.

We've all heard the tongue-in-cheek term, The beatings will continue until morale improves. Well, what are we doing? We can do better than rely on an approach developed by the U.S. military early in the last century and specifically for military scenarios. As for the private sector, "massive research shows that it doesn't change performance," Doug said. "It's a ridiculous thing. Yet people still do it. So, this book was aimed at helping people understand the value of making the change, and giving them a bit of a roadmap on what happens when you do that" and insight into "the profound impact it has on companies that are brave enough to make the change."

What kind of organization doesn't want performance to improve? What's great about leaving the traditional annual review behind is that employees' performance finally does improve -- the goal all along. New approaches aided by the state of the art in cloud software for this (like Betterworks) promote regular dialogue between managers and their direct reports, result in greater workforce engagement overall, and elevate the caliber of leadership throughout the organization.

Over time, in fact, turning away from the old ways of performance management can be an important precursor to organizational transformation -- and HR transformation, certainly. Traditionally (and tellingly), HR departments have always measured success vis-à-vis performance management in simple terms of completions -- "as opposed to impact, what is it that you're trying to achieve?" Jamie said. "Well, it's not just 'check the box.' We need to have a completely different way of showing up for our employees. We need to be thinking about different ways to get them engaged, and focused."

HR departments end up escaping this cost-center-reinforcing mentality and, armed with rich data on workforce performance and engagement, elevate their own standing with organizational leadership. Getting out of the past and into the future of work with their performance management, in other words, is good all around for everyone involved.

For an example of how this plays out, watch this episode of #HRTechChat from last summer, when we interviewed Betterworks user Jeff Andes, vice president of talent management at University of Phoenix.  And I almost forgot: another member of leadership at Betterworks appeared on the podcast last year. In the meantime, and as always, Doug and Jamie were great guests.

#HRTechChat: Make Work Better with Betterworks' Doug Dennerline & Jamie Aitken

Geoff Webb joins Nine To Thrive to discuss AI as a tool to work in collaboration with human capabilities rather than replacing them. The discussion ranges from leveraging AI to personalizing employee experiences, and correlating efficacy with data input. Despite initial job displacement fears, a survey reveals growing openness among employees toward AI's beneficial impact. 

Looking forward, the conversation predicts future HR themes around AI, urging discussions on policies and ethics. The discussion advocates for a proactive, gradual adoption approach, encouraging readiness for AI's transformative potential in HR while prioritizing ethical implementation.

Nine To Thrive HR

Supplement Human Capabilities: AI's Role in HR Transformation

#HRTechChat: Connecting Technology and Employee Experience with Kamal Pradhan

Every now and then a book comes along that challenges the status quo.  A book that has the capacity to help us look at what we are doing today and see that we can do better.  The Five Talents that Really Matter is such a book.  Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton, through scientific research, have identified the talents that really matter.  They cut through all the noise surrounding what leaders do and how the absolute best achieve success.

Talents are different from what we see in the market today—they are not a product of competency models or building lists of experiences or capabilities—they are not the output of 360 assessments from leaders or peers that can often suggest room for improvement.  “Talents cannot be learned or taught.   They are the natural characteristics we are all born with.”

Talents are a part of who we are and how we think (innate), consistent over time and resistant to change (enduring), and present in our daily work and in our lives (pervasive).

So, what are the Talents that really matter?

Setting Direction
Harnessing Energy
Exerting Pressure
Increasing Connectivity
Controlling Traffic

In this first podcast in the 5 Talents that Really Matter Series, we meet Barry and Sarah, learn about how they arrived at the five talents, and receive an overview of how the current way we evaluate and hire talent is flawed, and what can be done moving forward to select and develop talent with a high probability of success.

At a time when several studies have shown between 50-70% of new CEOs fail within the first 18 months (CEB), and 50% of externally hired executives and 35% of internally promoted leaders fall short of performance expectations (DDI), isn’t it time for a new approach?

#HRTechChat: The Five Talents That Really Matter with Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton

In today's workforce landscape, Ray Walker stands out as a leading expert in contingent workforce compliance. A seasoned professional who ensures compliance with both general and immigration laws, Walker's primary focus is maintaining business integrity while adhering to complex regulations.


Contingent workers, defined as non-standard, off-payroll employees engaged on a project basis, have become a significant part of the labor market, constituting one-fifth of the UK labor market. Walker categorizes contemporary workers into three main types: traditional full-time employees, gig workers, and professional service providers. Each group faces unique legislative challenges, especially in a globalized economy where misclassification and multi-jurisdictional issues are common.


Walker's expertise is precious in navigating these complexities, ensuring businesses remain compliant without hindering operational efficiency. His insights into the future of work emphasize the need for companies and workers to adapt to decentralized, technology-driven models, ensuring success in this dynamic environment.

#HRTechChat: Ray Walker on Navigating Contingent Workforce Compliance and the Future of Work

With consistent churn in leadership roles at all organization levels, we have to step back and ask the question:

- What are we missing in our selection process?
- How do we continually make poor selection decisions?
- And why aren’t we doing better?

Let us start with how we can get caught in the “likeability trap.” Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton, in The Five Talents that Really Matter, found that likeability factors have a significant impact on how a candidate is perceived. The problem is that likeability will not correlate with whether the candidate can perform in a specific role. Throughout my career I have seen organizations select highly likeable candidates that go on to fail in the job, often within the first 6-12 months. In the selection discussions, likeability is often defended as the criteria and can often win out over the discussion on potential performance.

In this podcast, join the conversation to learn more about:

1. How we can mislead candidates.
Do you think it is possible to mislead candidates in face-to-face interviews? I have seen this multiple times—candidates feel they had great interviews, and then are shocked when they do not get the role. Misleading candidates can not only create negative experiences for them, it can also damage a company’s brand.
2. How 360 Assessments are subjective at best and biased at worst.
3. How misaligned incentives with search firms can advocate for candidates that may not be the best choice.

In this session, Barry and Sarah offer a path forward for how to audit and evaluate your selection process.

“Their strategy is to introduce tools and processes that guide the hiring, selection, succession, and promotion decisions toward a defined structure that has measurable outcomes.”

With each leadership selection decision, company performance is on the line—we can improve selection and have an enormous positive impact.

#HRTechChat: What Companies Get Wrong About Selection with Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton

As part of researching The Five Talents that Really Matter, Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton, the co-authors, conducted and reviewed 58,000 talent assessments. Their research was global in nature, and they studied leaders at every organization level. Their findings challenge the status quo and call out for leaders, at times, things they may not have wanted to know.

The key learnings offer us insight into how we have been making decisions, unaware of their impact. Understanding these insights can help us make better choices and deliver better business performance.

Let ‘s look at just a few of the learnings here...and then listen to the podcast to get the whole story.

For example, when we are selecting candidates, we think of ourselves as objective—looking for whom we think would be the best candidate for a given role. If you ask leaders if they intentionally select people like themselves, they generally disagree. They think of themselves as seeking talent diversity. In fact, just the opposite was true, leaders had succeeded in “self-replication.” Even though it has been known for decades that “talent diversity predicts stronger collective performance advantages.”

Have you ever heard leaders profess that they welcome all points of view and love to be challenged? Well, the reality is that dissention is often not welcomed. How do you know if this is going on in your team? If your team is discussing a complicated issue and no one is speaking up—then disagreement is not welcomed—yet leaders perceive themselves as welcoming dissent. If team members are having a meeting after the meeting to talk about the real issues—the leader does not welcome dissent and may not even see it.

Do organizations have a bias for action-oriented leadership versus those with a keen eye for strategy?

Would you ever hire someone you personally dislike even if they were highly talented?

How often do you hire for likeability and are not even aware of it?

Why does it take some leaders a longer time to terminate poor performers?

In this podcast we will discuss the 18 insights and how you can use these findings to make better talent decisions—both in how you select and develop leaders.

#HRTechChat: 58,000 Assessments and 18 Key Learnings

Welcome to the fourth podcast in The Five Talents that Really Matter series.  In this podcast we begin to introduce the five talents, beginning with Setting Direction and Controlling Traffic.  

There is a familiar phrase: “If you don’t know where you are going, you’ll probably end up somewhere else."  While setting direction is where all great strategies begin, in our conversation with Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton, the authors of The Five Talents, we learn that it might be one of the rarest talents.

Successfully setting direction requires:
1. The destination has to be a place worth going to—a destination where people want to come along.
2. Getting people to come along is not just a matter of telling people your direction, you have to engage them—it requires listening, connection, and the ability to articulate a compelling picture around why you are going there.
3. It is important to connect each person to the destination and the work they are doing;  people have to know how they create value and how their contribution to work matters.

Many times, however, leaders can propose a direction, and it is met with skepticism because the direction was formulated in a vacuum, or it was the result of consultants formulating a direction that is not authentic to where the organization needs to go to be a success in the marketplace.  What we know is that it is difficult to inspire people and build a shared commitment to the future state.  

What we learn from Barry and Sarah is that you need to pay attention to the terrain.  Having a map is the beginning, but understanding the terrain is essential, and that is where controlling traffic is important.  It requires agility, adjusting to market conditions, recognizing opportunities that lie ahead, making sure that the organization is positioned for success.  

What I love about this conversation is that Barry and Sarah give us notable examples of how the best leaders can control traffic.  Execution capability is essential—the ability to effectively execute and orchestrate action.

Join the conversation on Setting Direction and Controlling Traffic to learn more.

The Five Talent that Really Matter is available on August 27th.

#HRTechChat: Mastering Leadership through Setting Direction and Controlling Traffic

In this podcast, our authors, Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton, take us through the last three Talents in this series.  Our conversation is organic moving between Harnessing Energy, Exerting Pressure, and Increasing Connectivity.

Here are high level ideas around these talents:
Harnessing energy: Every organization needs energy to function.  Leaders need energy to power themselves, as well as power others.  The authors offer a great metaphor, that of being the manager of a power plant.  Without energy, things do not get done.  Energy drives performance and commitment.  People are drawn to high energy organizations and high energy leaders.  
Exerting Pressure: What I love about this discussion in the book is that we learn the nuance of how inspiring others to action and effective influencing helps leaders meet the expectations they have set. 
Increasing connectivity: It would be impossible to move an organization forward without focusing on relationships.  Here are three critical issues for leaders that help build relationships that matter.
High performing leaders display elevated self-awareness and the ability to read others.
The best leaders build close relationships and invest in their high performers.
High Performing leaders are accountable for the overall integrity of the organizational network.  They hold themselves and others to the highest ethical standards.  

Join in listening to this podcast to gain the insights that shape how these Talents drive personal and organizational success.

Learn what Barry and Sarah discovered in their research, and why these Talents drive leadership success.

#HRTechChat: Looking at Talents of Harnessing Energy, Exerting Pressure, and Increasing Connectivity

James Griffin is a Principal Consultant at the UK-based Skills Collective. His work focuses on skills, enterprise SaaS (Software as a Service), talent transformation, and consulting, all of which revolve around the customer. His deep expertise lies in reimagining talent transformation strategies and understanding how to begin implementing skills-based approaches within organizations. He has positively impacted several SaaS organizations, including Degreed and Elevate Direct. With Principal Analyst Dylan Teggart, they discuss the shift from traditional job-based hiring to skills-based hiring, driven by the need for more tailored employee selection. James highlights the growing confusion in the software market, urging organizations to focus on tools that demonstrate clear value and align with corporate strategies.

#HRTechChat: Unpacking Skills Transformation with James Griffin

Welcome to Podcast 6 of The Five Talents that Really Matter.

Over the last 5 podcasts, I have wondered -- "What happens if you do not possess the talents that really matter?" It goes without saying that there are people in leadership positions today that do not possess those talents. So, we arrive at the Four harsh Truths:

1. Not everyone is or can be a leader. If you go into any organization, you can quickly see those that are leaders versus those in leadership positions that do not have the natural talents to effectively lead. In earlier podcasts, we talked about the fact that talents are innate. They are consistent over time and resistant to change. They are pervasive—present in our daily work and personal lives. In a world of nature versus nurture—innate talents are nature. Barry makes the point in this episode that organizations must stop lying to their employees and telling them that everyone can be a leader. Everyone has their level – and people can still make significant contributions to their organization without occupying a leadership role that doesn’t suit their natural dispositions.

2. We might never solve the lack of workplace diversity. Organizations have disproportionately hired in favor of a privileged group. We know that the biases that cause discriminatory hiring do not change through training programs. Your organization does not need a Chief Diversity Officer to take the right actions, but you should be well-versed in psychometric assessment as an important step toward mitigating unchecked biases that disadvantage talented candidates.

3. Leadership characteristics are hard to develop. Leadership cannot be taught to those who do not possess the natural talents to succeed. Barry and Sarah remind us that if everyone could learn leadership, we would not see such a dearth of Talent at the top of companies.

4. Personalities and Talents aren’t the same thing. Here is the takeaway that is significant—If you want to use assessments that matter, predictability is the key—results should be stable over time, and they should be valid predictors of performance. Talent assessments are not the same thing as a personality inventory. Talent assessments that are built to measure potential and predict success are more reliable, valid, and fair.

Join Barry Conchie and Sarah Dalton for the discussion on the Four Harsh Truths—and learn about how you can be brilliant and contribute even if you do not possess the Five Talents that Matter.

#HRTechChat: Four Harsh Truths and Finding Your Brilliance

The buying cycle for enterprise software and technology shouldn't be a power struggle between departments. 3Sixty Insights is a research, advisory, and consulting firm providing deep understanding of how to bridge the gap in perception and priorities between stakeholders. Through our research, we unearth strategic approaches for streamlining the decision-making process, successfully managing solutions, and maximizing value from business software and technology investments.

#HRTechChat: Make Work Better with Betterworks' Doug Dennerline & Jamie Aitken

3Sixty Insights Inc.

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