For our first episode of 2023, Centering welcomes Dr. Jung Choi of Duke Divinity School. A scholar-teacher trained in the New Testament and early Christianity, Dr. Choi shares about the Biblical importance of ecumenism, healthy tension within Christianity, and the power dynamics of voice and visibility.

*Since recording, Dr. Choi's role at Duke is now Associate Dean for Global and Intercultural Formation and Director of the Asian House of Studies

8x04 - Shaking Hands With the Pope... (Dr. Jung Choi)

In the latest episode of Centering: The Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee delve further into the challenging topic of toxic ministry. The conversation highlights the necessity of discernment in ministry, distinguishing between toxic and simply unhealthy environments. They introduce the concept of “spiritual bypassing,” where spiritual language and “Christianese” is used to avoid addressing real issues. Personal stories and examples from the Bible illustrate how authentic spiritual maturity involves embracing and processing one's emotions rather than bypassing them for a facade of spirituality. 

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
00:48 Understanding the Distinction Between Toxic and Dysfunctional Ministries
05:41 The Role of Grace in Enabling Abuse
06:53 Personal Stories of Ministry Abuse
12:11 Spiritual Bypassing vs. Spiritual Maturity
20:07 The Confusion of Discernment
20:19 Daniel's Story on Anger
20:42 The Complexity of Anger in Christianity
22:48 Spiritual Bypassing and Its Dangers
24:01 The Importance of Authenticity in Faith
25:36 The Role of Psalms in Prayer
26:37 Challenges in Ministry and Spiritual Manipulation
28:35 Embracing a Broad Spirituality
30:09 Avoiding Spiritual Bypassing
36:25 The Need for Honest Struggle in Faith
39:05 Concluding Thoughts on Toxic Ministry

Devotional Classics by Richard Foster https://www.harpercollins.com/products/devotional-classics-revised-edition-richard-j-foster?variant=32116217479202

Spiritual Bypassing by Robert Masters https://www.northatlanticbooks.com/shop/spiritual-bypassing/

Emotionally Healthy Church, Peter Scazzero Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Peter Scazzero https://www.harpercollinschristian.com/author/369/peter-scazzero/

KPop Demon Hunters
https://www.netflix.com/title/81498621

If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: https://fundraise.givesmart.com/form/lhJydg?vid=18eqio

Centering 10x2 - Spiritual Bypassing... For God's Glory?

This Giving Tuesday, support the work we do at the AAC! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

Spiritual Gaslighting…For God’s Glory?
In this episode of Centering: the Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Daniel Lee and Yulee Lee explore spiritual gaslighting, using scriptural examples and personal anecdotes, to illustrate its damaging effects on individuals and community health. Daniel and Yulee emphasize the importance of discernment, the need for genuine lament, and finding emotionally safe communities to navigate and heal from such toxic environments. They encourage listeners to anchor themselves in the true character of God and process their experiences honestly without bypassing pain and reality.

00:00 Introduction and Milestone Celebration
01:02 Season Overview: Toxic Ministry
01:49 Episode 3: Honest Conversations on Toxic Ministry
02:59 The Dangers of Spiritual Bypassing
05:51 Biblical Counseling and Its Pitfalls
12:24 Personal Story: Confronting Toxic Leadership
20:06 Recognizing Spiritual Gaslighting
21:59 Understanding Spiritual Gaslighting
22:23 Cultish Behavior in Churches
23:07 Examples of Spiritual Abuse
25:49 Personal Stories of Spiritual Abuse
27:53 Theological Reflections on Suffering
32:10 The Importance of Lament and Community
36:46 Practical Steps for Healing
40:54 Concluding Thoughts on Discernment

Emotionally Healthy Church, Peter Scazzero Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Peter Scazzero https://www.harpercollinschristian.com/author/369/peter-scazzero/

Bruggemann Loss of Genuine Lament
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/030908928601103605

Cultish by Amanda Montell https://amandamontell.com/cultish/

Centering 10x3 - Spiritual Gaslighting... For God's Glory?

Authoritarianism…For God’s Glory?
In this episode of the Centering: the Asian American Christian Podcast, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee are joined by guest Gabriel Jay Catanus (Director of the Filipino American Ministry Initiative and Affiliate Assistant Professor of Theology and Ethics at Fuller Seminary; Lead Pastor of Garden City Covenant Church - Chicago), who shares insights on the pitfalls of authoritarianism within church leadership, drawing parallels from historical examples like Dietrich Bonhoeffer's criticism of Nazi Germany and discussing how immigrant church communities can inadvertently foster toxic leadership dynamics. The conversation also highlights the importance of plurality, cultural sensitivity, and self-reflection in cultivating healthy spiritual leadership. The episode concludes with practical advice for leaders to avoid believing their own hype and for communities to focus on collaborative and ethical leadership practices.

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
00:48 Understanding Authoritarianism in Ministry
03:11 Guest Introduction: Gabriel Jay Catanus
04:49 Authority and Power Dynamics in Churches
08:43 Cultural and Spiritual Influences on Leadership
12:35 Charismatic Authority and Its Challenges
21:02 Navigating Spiritual Power and Leadership
27:24 Muscular Christianity and Nazi Ideology
28:10 Identifying Authoritarian Leaders
29:26 Embracing Plurality in Leadership
31:20 Efficiency vs. Plurality in Ministry
32:18 Challenges for Asian American Leaders
35:59 God's Relationship with Authority
37:13 Personal Reflections on Leadership
46:42 Concluding Thoughts and Future Topics

Dr. Gabriel Jay Catanus https://www.gabrieljcatanus.com/

Fuller’s Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu

The Grand Inquisitor by Dostoevsky https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8578/8578-h/8578-h.htm

The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-brothers-karamazov-a-new-translation-by-michael-r-katz-fyodor-dostoevsky/aefeb2fa8f45adb1

Bonhoeffer's 1933 radio address https://books.google.com/books?id=PF1cpVfZS60C&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

Centering 10x4 - Authoritarianism... For God's Glory? (Dr. Gabriel Jay Catanus)

Spirit’s Anointing…For God’s Glory?
In this episode of Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee explore the unlikely convergence of the biblical story of Samson, fermentation of kimchi, and iconic Jane Austen characters. The topic, Spirit’s Anointing…For God’s glory? highlights the dangers of conflating giftedness with divine favor, the importance of character over charisma, and the critical need for communal discernment and accountability structures, emphasizing that the anointing of the Spirit is made apparent through the evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. They draw on theological insights, personal anecdotes, and historical examples to emphasize the potential pitfalls of toxic ministry. The episode underscores the necessity for spiritual leaders to embody Christ-like humility and to engage in practices that promote healthy, sustainable, and God-centered leadership.

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
01:16 Recap of Previous Episode
01:54 The Dangers of Public Figures and Parasocial Relationships
04:36 The Misuse of Spiritual Anointing
07:44 The Importance of Communal Discernment
08:56 Character vs. Charisma in Leadership
14:37 The Role of Wisdom and Maturity
16:07 Distinguishing True Movements of God
18:06 White Christian Nationalism and NAR
20:34 The Importance of Accountability in Leadership
24:36 Avoiding Desperation in Ministry
26:37 The Dangers of Familiarity with Holy Things
29:53 Final Thoughts and Reflections

The Violent Take It by Force by Matthew D. Taylor https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506497785/The-Violent-Take-It-by-Force

About the New Apostolic Reformation https://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics

If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

Centering 10x5 - Spirit's Anointing... For God's Glory?

Sacrificial Faith…For God’s Glory?

In this episode of Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee discuss the concept of sacrificial faith, critiquing the unhealthy pressure to sacrifice personal well-being for ministry. They emphasize the importance of discerning genuine spiritual practices, recognizing God's presence in all aspects of life, and living with integrity. Join the conversation to rethink what true, life-giving sacrifice means in the context of healthy spiritual leadership.


00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
01:11 Personal Stories of Sacrifice
03:02 Theological Insights on Sacrifice
06:14 Equating Church with God
12:20 Toxic Leadership and Manipulation
19:04 Living Sacrifices in Scripture
22:05 Understanding True Obedience to God
23:03 The Importance of Feeling Loved by God
23:49 Challenges of Growing Up in Church
24:46 Finding Joy in Serving God
25:42 Integrating God into Everyday Life
27:39 The Danger of Spiritual Disciplines Becoming Idols
35:16 Jesus' Invitation to Rest
40:04 Practical Ways to Live Out Faith
43:01 Conclusion and Final Thoughts


Khora Collective https://khoracollective.com/


If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac


Centering 10x6 - Sacrificial Faith... For God's Glory?

Fetishized Suffering…For God’s Glory?
In this episode of Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee, are joined by guest Dr. Jessica ChenFeng, Associate Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy and Director of the Asian American Wellbeing Collaboratory at Fuller Seminary’s Asian American Center. Together they dive into the problematic glorification of suffering, especially within Asian American Christian contexts, examining how theological and cultural influences lead to detrimental endurance practices. These cultural influences are exacerbated within a systemic evangelical framework that rewards exhaustion, silence, and compliance. The conversation touches on the distorted understanding of suffering, its impact on organizational health, and practical steps toward healing.

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
01:11 Exploring Suffering in Ministry
02:51 Guest Introduction: Dr. Jessica ChenFeng
04:19 Cultural and Theological Roots of Suffering
11:53 Endurance and Toxic Endurance Culture
21:34 Organizational Costs of Fetishized Suffering
23:05 The Impact of Burnout on Creativity
23:33 Generational Fracture in Organizations
24:35 Theological Perspectives on Suffering
26:25 Therapeutic Approaches to Addressing Toxic Systems
32:58 The Role of Leadership in Healthy Systems
36:27 Personal Stories and Practical Steps for Healing
42:09 The Complexity of Discernment and Wisdom
43:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Redemptive Suffering: Christ’s Alone https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/scottish-journal-of-theology/article/abs/redemptive-suffering-christs-alone/C946F1F74F4DD229388BF58C42A6F9CE

The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
https://www.fortresspress.com/store/productgroup/467/Discipleship

The Integrative Mindset by Brad D. Strawn and Earl D. Bland https://www.ivpress.com/the-integrative-mindset?srsltid=AfmBOooDDJV3-4K75irArSANAu9XWbChTkJPR1SAcP_Tw4-UWT5TvL4g

Executive coach, Tracey Gee https://www.instagram.com/traceygee.me/?hl=en

Centering 10x7 - Fetishized Suffering... For God's Glory? (Dr. Jessica ChenFeng)

Using People…For God’s Glory?
In this episode of the Centering, hosts Yulee Lee and Daniel Lee are joined by special guest Dr. Kevin Doi, Director of Pastoral Formation at the AAC and Affiliate Assistant Professor of Asian American Church Studies at Fuller Seminary. The conversation delves into the temptation to use people for ministry growth, the importance of honoring individual callings, and creating a church environment focused on relational health rather than numerical growth. The episode highlights practical strategies for both recognizing and countering toxic ministry practices in church leadership.

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
00:47 Understanding Toxic Ministry for God's Glory
02:29 Guest Introduction: Dr. Kevin Doi
04:23 The Familiarity of Oppression in Ministry
06:39 The Challenge of Healthy Boundaries
09:19 Rethinking Church Growth and Leadership
15:45 The Importance of Relational Ministry
25:11 The Role of Ministry Beyond Church Walls
25:57 Challenges of Church Leadership
27:12 Personal Experiences in Church Dynamics
29:29 The Pressure of Metrics in Ministry
32:20 Rethinking Church Leadership and Community
40:30 Practical Steps for Healthy Ministry
47:29 Concluding Thoughts and Next Episode Preview

Asian American Pastoral Formation Initiative https://aac.fuller.edu/initiatives/pastoral-formation-initiative/

Leadership and the New Science by Margaret Wheatley https://margaretwheatley.com/books/leadership-and-the-new-science/

Fall 2026 Asian American Ministry Doctor of Ministry cohort, mentored by Dr. Kevin Doi and Dr. Daniel Lee https://fuller.edu/dmin/fall-2026-asian-american-ministry-cohort/

If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac

Centering 10x8 - Using People... For God's Glory? (Dr. Kevin Doi)

No Sabbath…For God’s Glory?
This episode of Centering features a conversation with special guest Dr. Alex Jun, research professor of Korean American Ministry and Church Leadership Studies at Fuller Seminary, and director of the Asian American Center’s soon-to-be-launched Korean American Ministry initiative. With hosts Daniel and Yulee, the group delves into the concept of Sabbath and sabbaticals, examining common misunderstandings and the importance of rest for spiritual and community health. They discuss the role of cultural and parental influences on work ethics, the pitfalls of overwork, and how to honor personal limits. Personal anecdotes and practical advice for integrating restful practices into daily life offer listeners a path toward healthier spiritual leadership.

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
00:56 Listener Stories and Toxic Church Culture
02:22 Special Guest: Alex Jun on Sabbath and Sabbatical
05:31 Misunderstandings of Sabbath
15:09 Cultural Perspectives on Work and Rest
18:26 Immigrant Experience and Work Ethic
24:38 Leadership and Rest in Ministry
27:33 The Struggle of Self-Worth and Leadership
28:14 The Reality of Sabbaticals and Leadership
29:15 Reforming Leadership Through Sabbath
30:40 The Messianic Complex in Leadership
32:52 The Challenge of Rest for Leaders of Color
35:19 Gender Dynamics in Leadership and Rest
36:41 The Model Minority Myth and Faith
44:11 Personal Practices for Sabbath and Rest
50:06 Concluding Thoughts on Sabbath and Humanity

Critical Race Theory Centering season https://on.soundcloud.com/lwSbbDg462wyBQzqZD

Serge - The Gospel-Centered Life https://serge.org/the-gospel-centered-life/

Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother by Amy Chua https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/battle-hymn-of-the-tiger-mother-amy-chua/1100154952

Khora Collective https://www.khoracollective.com/

Centering 10x9 - No Sabbath... For God's Glory? (Dr. Alexander Jun)

Peace and Forgiveness…For God’s Glory
In the final episode of the season, Yulee and Daniel share personal reflections on their healing journeys and emphasize the necessity of having support systems, practicing discernment, and engaging in healthy spiritual leadership that aligns with the gospel of grace. They also touch upon the 'whisper network,' the importance of fruit of the spirit, and practical ways to foster accountability and challenge toxic behaviors in ministry.

00:00 Introduction to Toxic Ministry
00:47 Personal Reflections and Listener Feedback
05:22 The Importance of Embracing Humanity
06:47 Evaluating Leadership and Power Dynamics
12:22 The Halo Effect and Leadership Pitfalls
20:19 DARVO and Toxic Leadership Responses
28:35 Receiving Feedback as a Leader
29:36 The Importance of Margins and Self-Care
30:10 Participating in Change and Addressing Toxicity
31:50 The Role of Integrity and Responsibility
33:34 Challenges of Speaking Up Against Toxic Leaders
42:46 The Whisper Network: Pros and Cons
48:16 The Importance of Community and Support
51:36 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections

If you appreciate the work we do at the Asian American Center at Fuller Seminary, please consider supporting us! Your monetary support sustains our vital work and expands Asian American research, leadership development, and pastoral formation for the Church in the year ahead. Donate here: fuller.edu/giveaac


Centering 10x10 - Peace & Forgiveness... For God's Glory

Centering is the Asian American Christian Podcast: conversations on Christ, the Christian life, and Asian American perspectives.

Through our podcast seasons, as well as specially presented content, we dive into the reality and beauty of living out Asian American Christian faith.

Centering is a production of the Center for Asian American Theology and Ministry at Fuller Theological Seminary.

8x04 - Shaking Hands With the Pope... (Dr. Jung Choi)

Centering: The Asian American Christian Podcast

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